the list (of criminals) is revealed

[ullmandds]

just got a pastrami on rye at my neighborhood deli...it came with a SHILL pickle!

[dhernandez]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

just got a pastrami on rye at my neighborhood deli...it came with a SHILL pickle!

ROFLMFAO! Was just watching VH1 classic 80 videos. They just played one of my favorites from the Gloved One: Shiller

[Hankphenom]

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

[HRBAKER]

Another plausible explanation why they haven't addressed could be that some of them don't care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

Amen! There are only a few AH's that I trust since all this *poop* hit the fan, but it sure would be nice if, as a consignor, my AH of choice came on here and said exactly that! I don't want potential bidders and hobbyists to be turned off by all the negativity and fearing that they will be shilled in a perfectly legitimate auction. Why the silence from all the big players? It's in your best interest to come on here and set things straight, whether you're on the list or not!

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

I suppose we won't hear from any/all because if there's a chance that someone is shilling their auctions that they don't know about, there could be hell to pay and possible lawsuits in their future. But it sure would be nice to know that someone out there cares and is willing to stick their neck out and say, "here I am...look what I'm doing to prevent shilling from happening in my auctions and no, I have never shilled or allowed shilling to take place in my auctions!" Simple.

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Or could be that shilling, as we define it here to include the house bidding against the public, is at least partially allowable in Texas, where Heritage HQ is located. Their rules say right up front that the house can bid on stuff, as Chris Ivy stated in a 2009 interview:

"Heritage, and its affiliates, in addition to being the largest collectibles auctioneer in the world, is also one of the largest collectibles dealers (i.e., buyers and sellers) in the world," Ivy explained. "Heritage Auction Galleries is almost unique in that regard within the fine art field, as most fine art auction houses aren’t dealers, don’t have dealer affiliates, and thus don’t bid in their own auctions. Most coin and many collectibles auction firms, however, do bid in their own auctions. The fact that we bid in our own sales is fully disclosed online and in our auction catalogs. We state: ‘The Auctioneer or its affiliates may consign items to be sold in the Auction, and may bid on those lots or any other lots.’ Even if we didn’t fully disclose it – which we do – it would be perfectly legal for an auction house or its affiliates to bid in their own auctions so long as the bid is made with the intention of buying the item.’

"Frankly, it wouldn’t be fair to our consignors for us not to bid in our own auction the same amount we would gladly pay for the same item in a competitor’s auction," Ivy observed.

- See more at: http://www.tuffstuff.com/news/herita....p7VVPAqw.dpuf

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

brilliant question.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

If Heritage bids on and wins a lot. Who do they pay the 20% buyer premium to?
It seems the rest of us may be at a 20% disadvantage....among other problems.

That is a good question because it does give them a 20% price advantage over other bidders.

I have not seen but did Mastro or Allen rat out any of the card doctors they used. Actually is card doctoring even illegal? I would guess not because Dick Towele(SP?) and others openly advertise their business.

[whitehse]

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by whitehse

Shill bidding
TPG re-submits for bumps
WIWAG
re-coloring
Creased card "adjustments"
well trusted people in the hobby now going to jail
and on and on

I have been in this hobby for 40+ years as a collector, dealer, card shop owner and now back to a collector. It is at the point where one cannot go to any message boards to talk about the great things this hobby has to offer without seeing hobby dirty laundry being aired out and collectors who I hold in high esteem being reduced to finger pointers and naysayers.

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Good strategy for you. But I have no problem doing both: participating in and enjoying the hobby to the fullest while at the same time discussing and trying to address the problems. Actually, I enjoy them both.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by whitehse

I, for one am done. Not done with collecting but done with reading whine and bitch-fest posts. I think it is time to just get back to enjoying the joys this hobby has to offer and leave this other crap behind. Life can suck and our hobbies are supposed to be an escape from the big plate of crap life dishes up. I cannot let this negative garbage ruin something that has brought me such joy over the years. Granted, I have not lost piles of money like others with these hobby schemes that have popped up but I never allowed myself to get to that point either. For me, its back to enjoying this hobby and the fun it has to offer and try to leave this negativity behind. Hopefully we can all get beyond this garbage and get back to why we are really here.

Understand completely what you are saying and I’m working on heading down the same path. Over the past few months, I found myself spending a lot of my time getting caught up, focusing, and commenting on all the negatives going on in the hobby; which sometimes is warranted. But I do agree, it would be great to see an entire month go by where everyone is showing off their stuff and just talking about collecting.

[timn1]

to the good-guy list above. Oh! And B&L Auctions as well (Hi Leon & Scott).

All those guys (like Ryan C. and Al C. and Rhys) are collectors who happen to have their own auction companies, rather than people just out for the money (Mastro was a collector once about a million years ago, I guess, but always a jerk).

No one has been bitching about them shilling their customers. For those of you sick of the negativity, these are your shining examples of all the things that are right about the hobby.

My hope is that Mastro/Legendary's downfall, and the ambiguities about Heritage's policy of bidding on its own items (though I don't doubt they are above-board), will benefit these smaller auction houses. REA notwithstanding (and with all respect to Brian Dwyer who is a standup guy for sure), the hobby would be better off without the big-money auction houses.

Tim

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

My guess is that most think that Al's (LOTG), Ryan's (Cubanbaseball), and Rhys's (RMY) auction houses don't have shill-bidding issues - I'm deducing this based on my experience with each and because at least Rhys and Ryan have come on here to chime in - but wouldn't it behoove you (and the bigger players) to come on here and flat out tell it like it is?

.

In my experience with Sterling, I'd say 50 percent of my winning bids went for less than my max. I'd definitely add him to this good guy list

Rich

[WindyCityGameUsed]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I'm amazed at how little attention on this thread has been directed at the list itself and its implications. I would think there would have been more discussion about:

1) Just how widespread shill bidding seems to have been by consignors. Name after name, many of them well-known, who appear to have had shill bidders driving up the prices of their items, resulting in substantial losses for the winning bidders, the list of whom reads like a who's who of the hobby. This raises several questions, including whether they were doing this in cahoots with Mastro to make sure they never had to actually buy back their own items or at least with a waiver of the buyer's premium if they did. Also, just how widespread was this strategy by major consignors in other auctions? If the practice was as routine as the Mastro list would suggest, losses to auction winners caused by shill bidding over the years undoubtedly totals many millions of dollars. And what are the legal and ethical implications for these consignors and their shills? Are there any, or will they continue to be able to pursue this strategy of inflating the proceeds from their items without any recourse or increased scrutiny?
2) The conspicuous silence, with the notable exception of Kevin Keating, from any of the many notable hobby figures who have been outed as either participating consignors or their shill bidders. Surely, word has gotten around by now of the publication on Net54 of the list. Where are the full-throated defenses, or even just attempts at explanation, from those whose reputations have been brought into question by their appearance on it? Instead, crickets.
3) Similarly, where are the other auction houses, coming on to assure us that the practices outlined in Exhibit E, resulting in losses for bidders in the hundreds of thousands from just the few auctions uncovered, has not happened and could never happen to the winners in their auctions? Seems to me there's a lot at stake for them as to how collectors and dealers perceive the degree of fairness of participating in their auctions. Again, crickets.

These are just a few of the questions the publication of this information brings to mind. Maybe it's just too much to absorb all at once, and I'm also not sure how much can be done to try to assure a more equitable playing field for us beleaguered collectors from here on, but at the least it should be worthy of continued discussion. We should be able to do better than just lumping the business and ethical side of the hobby in with the worst practices of lawyers and insurance companies and heaving a collective sigh of "what are you gonna do?"

Shilling has been going on soooooo long that AH's don't even think that the practice is illegal its just common business practice.

I understand having an auction reserve price as a form of protection for the seller if thats the route you want to go especially on quality memorabilia the problem for me is that this runs much deeper than just having a reserve.

AH's want to get as many potential buyers bidding and mentally vested in the process with the hopes of overselling the item by setting the stage for a bidding war or an impulse decision to bid/buy.

If I had to guess I would guess that 40% of what you think you see selling at AH's are in fact items that had hidden reserves that weren't met especially in todays market place.

Bottom line shilling has been around 4ever, is alive and well, and without impartial 3rd party over-site not going anywhere anytime soon. Anyone who tells you anything different probably works for or owns an AH.

Ron Kosiewicz

[WindyCityGameUsed]

MY advise is