Why is Jackie Robinson in the HOF?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 04-16-2016, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I would love to chat with Bill James about Clemente being only in the top 70's, that's just idiotic....This guy won 4 batting crowns in 6 years, and had the best arm in the game...

Bill Madlock won 4 batting titles.

CMIZ5290 · #2 04-16-2016, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill Madlock won 4 batting titles.

Agree Peter, but could he even compare to Clemente? Not even close....

Peter_Spaeth · #3 04-16-2016, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Agree Peter, but could he even compare to Clemente? Not even close....

No of course not.

CMIZ5290 · #4 04-16-2016, 10:14 PM

I'm sorry, my feelings are getting the best of me and I was hoping that some other members would come to my rescue. I think Clemente is one of the best players of all time (top 10). When you factor in his defense (12 straight gold gloves), best arm in the game, along with his bat, I think it's hard to argue. He seems to get too much praise for great deeds he did off the field, and that maybe hurts him in the stats world. Great topic, let's move on....

DeanH3 · #5 04-16-2016, 10:57 PM

No doubt Jackie deserves to be in the HOF. I also agree it's fair to debate whether or not his stats warrant induction.

We need more eye candy in this thread!

the 'stache · #6 04-17-2016, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm sorry, my feelings are getting the best of me and I was hoping that some other members would come to my rescue. I think Clemente is one of the best players of all time (top 10). When you factor in his defense (12 straight gold gloves), best arm in the game, along with his bat, I think it's hard to argue. He seems to get too much praise for great deeds he did off the field, and that maybe hurts him in the stats world. Great topic, let's move on....

I love Clemente, and have since I was a kid. I'd say top ten is a bit too high, especially if we're considering all players (not separate lists for pitchers and position players); but definitely top 25 all-time.

The thing that normally gets Clemente downgraded on the list is his power numbers. But two things seem to get overlooked. One, until 1970, he played his home games at Forbes Field, which was a freaking aircraft hanger. Second, his attitude on his offensive approach.

Quote:

"I am more valuable to my team hitting .330 than swinging for home runs."

Clemente had massive power. I've read several places that the line drives he hit were so hard, he actually scared some Major League infielders. I remember a quote from Ernie Banks, who said something to the effect of that when Clemente was at the plate, 100% of his focus was on the hitter, because if he wasn't paying attention, Clemente might take his head off. But when Clemente got some elevation on his hits, he hit some monstrous home runs, liked this one that ESPN tracker shows Clemente hit off of Sandy Koufax off of Sandy Koufax at Forbes Field in 1964. It hit a light tower in left-center field, 457 feet from home plate. It estimates that with the velocity of the ball off the bat, and the given conditions, the ball would have traveled 492 feet.

Then there is the home run he hit at Wrigley Field on May 17, 1959. Many consider it the longest home run ever hit at Wrigley (though the Glenallen Hill home run which landed on the roof of the building behind Wrigly on Waveland Avenue might be longer now). Both Ernie Banks and Rogers Hornsby stated they never saw a ball hit farther at the park.

Banks on Clemente

Quote:

Clemente geared his style of hitting for Forbes field, whose left field walls are too far away for consistent production from right handed hitters: Roberto concentrated on hitting line drives into the spacious right center field section. Had he been a Cub, I'm sure he would have adopted a power style of swing- ing. Some of you fans may remember the ball he knocked out of Wrigley field a few seasons ago, just to the left field side of the scoreboard. That's the longest one I've seen hit there and we all agreed it must have traveled more than 500 feet on its trip into Waveland avenue.

More on Clemente's tremendous opposite field power:

Quote:

Roberto Clemente's third 500-footer in three months and his second in five days? Well, not quite. As Clemente himself says, "Sunday was the longer ball." Absent any eyewitness to this launch's landing, it may have travelled 450-, 460-, 470-plus feet or more. In any case, RC's five-day feast remains a Forbes Field first. TSN's Les Biederman, who's covered the Pirates since 1938, elaborates:

"This time the ball disappeared over the monument with Al Jackson of the Cardinals on the mound, and the fans gasped. Two titanic shots in less than one week. He became the first batter within memory to hit two home runs into the sector of right-center between the Barney Dreyfuss monument and the light tower at the exit gate." [19]
By way of corroboration, Cardinals beat writer Neal Russo enlists some sources with even more seniority:

"Forbes Field employees who have been watching baseball there 40 years could not recall any right-handed batter besides Clemente hitting more than one ball over the wall in dead center. In fact, only a few, including Rogers Hornsby [on April 24, 1926, off the flagpole by the 457-foot mark in left center] and Mickey Mantle (in the 1960 World Series) [on October 6th, between the 436-foot mark and the exit gate in right center, measured at 478 feet], have done it even once." [20]
St. Louis centerfielder Curt Flood speaks with Biederman:

"I thought at first I might catch it. Then I thought it might hit the wall and I'd get the bounce. I just didn't think any righthander could hit a ball that far." [21]
Flood's reaction echoes that of his Houston counterpart, Jimmy Wynn, just four days ago.

Clemente's power came from his phenomenal bat speed. He had some of the strongest hands, and wrists, of any Major Leaguer to ever play the game. His wrist snap is part of what gave him such incredible velocity on his throws from right field. And, He could hit the ball no matter where it was pitched. He was a great junk ball hitter. Clemente was known to have hit many upper deck home runs off of his front foot, such as this opposite field, second deck shot at the 1971 All Star Game at Tigers Stadium.

The closest player I have seen to Robby's skill set in my lifetime is Ichiro Suzuki. He didn't hit a lot of home runs, either, in fact, fewer than one-half of Clemente's 240. But, like Clemente, he put on power shows in batting practice, hitting one ball after another into the upper deck. He choose to be a high average hitter. And, he had a tremendous arm.

Speaking of arms...

Of course, Ichiro never hit a walk off, inside-the-park grand slam. Roberto Clemente did.

tedzan · #7 04-17-2016, 07:56 AM

Getting this thread back on the main topic......unlike most of you posting here, I grew up watching Jackie play for all his 10 years in the Majors.

I will tell you....Jackie was sensational ! He indeed deserves to be in the HOF. Statistics #'s don't tell the real story.

Anyone here who says otherwise is uninformed.

And, this is coming from an avid Yankees fan, whose nearby neighbor was Phil Rizzuto (1945 - 1965).

Jackie Robinson's 1st Major League BB card (1947 Bond Bread).

April 23, 1947 Dodgers Program & Scorecard

TED Z
.

Vintageclout · #8 04-17-2016, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm sorry, my feelings are getting the best of me and I was hoping that some other members would come to my rescue. I think Clemente is one of the best players of all time (top 10). When you factor in his defense (12 straight gold gloves), best arm in the game, along with his bat, I think it's hard to argue. He seems to get too much praise for great deeds he did off the field, and that maybe hurts him in the stats world. Great topic, let's move on....

Kevin,

Clemente is truly one of baseball's premier outfielders/players, and you need no support to justify this. However, I do feel from the late 50's thru the mid 60's he was the FIFTH best outfielder in baseball, falling somewhat short of Mays, Mantle, Aaron and Frank Robinson. His defensive excellence unfortunately gets trumped by those player's far superior power, and keep in mind they were all formidable defensive outfielders. Great story for you. When Tom Seaver was called upon for the save in the 1967 All-Star game during his rookie season, he stated one of his greatest bseeball moments ever was even before he through his first pitch. After his warmups, he stepped behind the mound to rub up the ball and looked at an outfield of Clemente in right, Mays in center and Aaron in left! How about that supporting cast for a rookie pitcher!

JoeT.

the 'stache · #9 04-17-2016, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Kevin,

Clemente is truly one of baseball's premier outfielders/players, and you need no support to justify this. However, I do feel from the late 50's thru the mid 60's he was the FIFTH best outfielder in baseball, falling somewhat short of Mays, Mantle, Aaron and Frank Robinson. His defensive excellence unfortunately gets trumped by those player's far superior power, and keep in mind they were all formidable defensive outfielders. Great story for you. When Tom Seaver was called upon for the save in the 1967 All-Star game during his rookie season, he stated one of his greatest bseeball moments ever was even before he through his first pitch. After his warmups, he stepped behind the mound to rub up the ball and looked at an outfield of Clemente in right, Mays in center and Aaron in left! How about that supporting cast for a rookie pitcher!

JoeT.

Frank Robinson was not a formidable defensive player. Not by any stretch of the imagination. He had one season with a positive dWAR, a 1.1 in 1957. His next best season, defensively, he had a dWAR of 0.0 in 1961, meaning he was at the level of a replacement level outfielder. Every other season, he had a negative dWAR. And for his career, his dWAR is -15.0

Clemente, on the other hand, has a 12.1 dWAR for his career, and I think that metric is on the conservative side.

And, while Robinson had the power advantage, if you compare their career WAR head to head, Clemente is actually the better player. Much of that has to do with how they ended their careers. While Robinson was God awful his last four season (4.3 WAR combined), Clemente was sensational (25.0 WAR).

Robinson's career WAR is 107.2. He played 2,808 games. He represents one win per 26.19 games played over his career.
Clemente's career WAR is 94.5. He played in 2,433 games. He represents one win per 25.74 games played over his career.

It's close, but Clemente's versatility edges Robinson's power.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 04-17-2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Frank Robinson was not a formidable defensive player. Not by any stretch of the imagination. He had one season with a positive dWAR, a 1.1 in 1957. His next best season, defensively, he had a dWAR of 0.0 in 1961, meaning he was at the level of a replacement level outfielder. Every other season, he had a negative dWAR. And for his career, his dWAR is -15.0

Clemente, on the other hand, has a 12.1 dWAR for his career, and I think that metric is on the conservative side.

And, while Robinson had the power advantage, if you compare their career WAR head to head, Clemente is actually the better player. Much of that has to do with how they ended their careers. While Robinson was God awful his last four season (4.3 WAR combined), Clemente was sensational (25.0 WAR).

Robinson's career WAR is 107.2. He played 2,808 games. He represents one win per 26.19 games played over his career.
Clemente's career WAR is 94.5. He played in 2,433 games. He represents one win per 25.74 games played over his career.

It's close, but Clemente's versatility edges Robinson's power.

Clemente's on base percentage is pretty bad for a hitter of his statute, .359. His OPS is nothing to write home about either. On base percentage is always one of the arguments that Aaron was overrated, and while his wasn't spectacular, it was 15 points higher than Clemente's.

Vintageclout · #11 04-17-2016, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Frank Robinson was not a formidable defensive player. Not by any stretch of the imagination. He had one season with a positive dWAR, a 1.1 in 1957. His next best season, defensively, he had a dWAR of 0.0 in 1961, meaning he was at the level of a replacement level outfielder. Every other season, he had a negative dWAR. And for his career, his dWAR is -15.0

Clemente, on the other hand, has a 12.1 dWAR for his career, and I think that metric is on the conservative side.

And, while Robinson had the power advantage, if you compare their career WAR head to head, Clemente is actually the better player. Much of that has to do with how they ended their careers. While Robinson was God awful his last four season (4.3 WAR combined), Clemente was sensational (25.0 WAR).

Robinson's career WAR is 107.2. He played 2,808 games. He represents one win per 26.19 games played over his career.
Clemente's career WAR is 94.5. He played in 2,433 games. He represents one win per 25.74 games played over his career.

It's close, but Clemente's versatility edges Robinson's power.

It is close but for my dollar, at PEAK VALUE, I'll take Robinson.

rats60 · #12 04-17-2016, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm sorry, my feelings are getting the best of me and I was hoping that some other members would come to my rescue. I think Clemente is one of the best players of all time (top 10). When you factor in his defense (12 straight gold gloves), best arm in the game, along with his bat, I think it's hard to argue. He seems to get too much praise for great deeds he did off the field, and that maybe hurts him in the stats world. Great topic, let's move on....

You are right, but the problem is most people put zero value on defense.

Outfield Assists
Clemente 266
Aaron 201
Mays 195
Yaz 195
This despite those players playing longer and runners stopping trying to run on Clemente. The number of extra bases he prevented, turning doubles into singles, preventing runners going first to third, scoring from 2b on hits, 3rd base on fly out can't be ignored.

RF put outs
Clemente 4445
Evans 4247
Aaron 4154
Again despite playing fewer seasons, he still caught 200-300 more balls than the best RFS. His unmatched range can't be ignored. How many of those 200-300 or more balls that other RF couldn't get to went to the wall, 2b or 3b resulting in runs?

Total zone runs RF
Clemente 204
Karine 155
Aaron 98
Again players with more seasons, no where close to him.

When you add how much his defense added to what offense he produced despite playing in Forbes Field, the most difficult hitters park in the NL, he is easily top 10 all time.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
2 bats a co worker brought into work	vwtdi	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	4	04-12-2016 05:05 PM
SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector	CMIZ5290	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	219	04-10-2016 03:42 PM
What the Secret Santa brought us...	brianp-beme	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	19	01-04-2016 08:22 PM
What Brought You To Collect Vintage?	bcookie	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	16	05-08-2012 05:44 PM
Another GAI update brought to you by a grant from "elronsanchez"	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	8	04-03-2002 07:35 PM