Clayton Kershaw

[BearBailey]

Kershaw is certainly on his way but still very early in his career for me, I still think Greg Madfux is the best pitcher I have ever seen. I was shocked this week on the ESPN rankings having Pedro in 1st by quire a bit. I was lucky enough Enough to see Pedro pitch 5 starts and 1 inning of relief on either the last or next to last of the season. He was 0-4 with 1 no decision. As great as he was I just saw him in person on the wrong nights?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

But, NOT based on his integrity.





.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on the combination of greatness at his peak and longevity, I would take Clemens with Maddux a close second. Don't overlook the Big Unit either.

How can you look over a Big Unit? Do tell.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

How can you look over a Big Unit? Do tell.

By overstating the case for Pedro as the greatest ever.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 58 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 215 (31), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 206 (21), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 60 (16), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (21st), 84.0 career WAR/58.2 7yr-peak WAR/71.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO THE UNIT

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 99 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 280 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 331 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 65 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (9th), 102.1 career WAR/62.0 7yr-peak WAR/82.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO CLEMENS

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 100 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 320 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 332 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 73 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (3rd), 140.3 career WAR/66.3 7yr-peak WAR/103.3 JAWS

[JustCollectVP]

I'm on the Pedro/Koufax bandwagon with respect to post-war dominance over a specific period of their careers. Clemens, Maddux and Johnson may have had better numbers over a longer length of career, but over a consecutive 3-4 year stretch, I'll take Pedro first and then Sandy. They were so much better than their contemporaries over their respective stretches that I would challenge someone to provide evidence that anyone was better since the end of WWII.

I'm still holding my breath that Julio Urias stays healthy, because he reminds me of Pedro throwing from the left side... While obviously putting the cart before the horse and being somewhat blasphemous to the Dodger blue, he may make Kershaw's dominance an afterthought in a few seasons.

[chaddurbin]

from the pitchers i saw, i would take peak pedro and maddux's longevity. i would also take andy pettite in the playoffs.

as for urias he doesn't profile to be a future ace, i'd say a very good 2 is his ceiling. he's very advanced and polished for his age, thus he can dominate the high minor leagues at 19-20...but his body doesn't project to grow anymore so it's not like he's gonna start throwing like thor syndergaard in a couple years. he definitely doesn't have pedro's electric stuff...but i can hope he gets fed some mexican ped's and start throwing 97-98 soon and reach kershaw's level.

[JustCollectVP]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

from the pitchers i saw, i would take peak pedro and maddux's longevity. i would also take andy pettite in the playoffs.

as for urias he doesn't profile to be a future ace, i'd say a very good 2 is his ceiling. he's very advanced and polished for his age, thus he can dominate the high minor leagues at 19-20...but his body doesn't project to grow anymore so it's not like he's gonna start throwing like thor syndergaard in a couple years. he definitely doesn't have pedro's electric stuff...but i can hope he gets fed some mexican ped's and start throwing 97-98 soon and reach kershaw's level.

We shall see.

You don't need to be able to throw through a wall, but know how to pitch around it. I think Urias' arsenal and growing maturity will surprise those that project him to be a midland starter and claim he's just been a men among boys so far.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustCollectVP

I'm on the Pedro/Koufax bandwagon with respect to post-war dominance over a specific period of their careers. Clemens, Maddux and Johnson may have had better numbers over a longer length of career, but over a consecutive 3-4 year stretch, I'll take Pedro first and then Sandy. They were so much better than their contemporaries over their respective stretches that I would challenge someone to provide evidence that anyone was better since the end of WWII.

I'm still holding my breath that Julio Urias stays healthy, because he reminds me of Pedro throwing from the left side... While obviously putting the cart before the horse and being somewhat blasphemous to the Dodger blue, he may make Kershaw's dominance an afterthought in a few seasons.

3-4 years is a very short time. Dizzy Dean would be up there for such a short stretch too. Alexander and Johnson had some mind blowing short stretches.

[clydepepper]

Using the Bill James HOF Statistical Ranking System puts a lot of emphasis on volume no matter how long it takes. Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield and Nolan Ryan are just three that benefit from it.

Even Harold Baines gets a higher rank due to the length of his career.

James had, in his Historical Abstracts, addressed this with Peak Value.

RJ is dominant from either perspective, but personally it's more impressive for a small guy to do it than a giant of a man.


Once again, Clemens like Bonds could have easily qualified as the best of their generation, and in many folks opinion, still are.

In my opinion, however, when the line between what was legit and what was not is blurred to the point where the actual Record Book is doubted, such an anointment is dubious at best.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By overstating the case for Pedro as the greatest ever.

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 58 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 215 (31), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 206 (21), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 60 (16), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (21st), 84.0 career WAR/58.2 7yr-peak WAR/71.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO THE UNIT

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 99 (6), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 280 (14), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 331 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 65 (12), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (9th), 102.1 career WAR/62.0 7yr-peak WAR/82.0 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

COMPARED TO CLEMENS

Hall Of Fame StatisticsPlayer rank in (·)


Black Ink Pitching - 100 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 40

Gray Ink Pitching - 320 (7), Average HOFer ≈ 185

Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 332 (2), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 73 (5), Average HOFer ≈ 50

JAWS Starting Pitcher (3rd), 140.3 career WAR/66.3 7yr-peak WAR/103.3 JAWS

[Peter_Spaeth]

JAWS is a good compromise metric because it gives equal weight to career and 7 year peak. Pedro great as he was for a time was basically done by age 33. Not much older than Koufax when he shut it down. Even if you discount Clemens as a user, Maddux was still a pretty effective pitcher into his late 30s and maybe even through 40 if memory serves.