Your top 3 non HOFers

[Vintagevault13]

Dale Murphy, Fred McGriff, Alan Trammel


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[aconte]

Dale Murphy, Larry Bowa, Steve Garvey

[midmo]

Gil Hodges, Don Mattingly, Dale Murphy

[bobsbbcards]

Jim McCormick, Bill Dahlen, and Lou Whitaker

[rats60]

Bagwell
Raines
Trammell

[nat]

Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume steroid suspicion has kept Bagwell out, no? Otherwise he seems pretty obvious.

My reasoning on Hodges Oliva and Garvey is that they were each pretty dominant players for a decade or close to it, although they didn't quite put together the big career numbers. I guess Mattingly fits that bill too.

[Bill77]

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Bill77

If I had to name just 3 players I would go with:

Al Oliver .303 BA, 2743 Hits in 18 seasons
Buddy Bell .279 BA, 2514 Hits in 18 seasons
Del Ennis .284 BA, 2063 Hits in 14 seasons

Others would include:
Lou Whitaker
Mark Grace
Rusty Staub


I just think it's amazing how many players have good/great stats that seem to be overlooked just because they don't play on great teams or are overshadowed by bigger stars of the era.

There are a lot of reason why, and a lot of reasons that don't make any sense and just make one shake their head in disbelieve!
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/...again-20141208

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...-a-lot-of-work

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/ml...thomas-raines/

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by nat

Reasons are more interesting than just names. Let's hear the arguments for these guys.

I'm going to exclude Bagwell and Raines, because I think it's very very likely that they get in in the next year (Raines) or two (Bagwell). Schilling and a couple other guys currently on the ballot get omitted for similar reasons.

Don't hold me to these picks as the very best, but here are a few:

Lou Whittaker. Lou's trouble is that he did everything well and nothing outstanding. He had good power (20 HR range in the 1980s), was a good fielder (+15 dWAR, although some of that he gets just for playing second base, but he also won a few gold gloves), he walked more than he struck out. He was an above-average batter all but one year of his career, even playing a defense-first position. 75 wins above replacement (basically, if you replaced him with a AAA guy you'd expect to win 75 fewer games over the course of his career) and 42 wins above average, both well above what it usually takes to get into the hall of fame.

Kevin Brown. I know that this one will be unpopular, but Brown really was a great player, it's just that no one was paying attention. From 1992 to 2001 (the heart of his career) he had a 3.00 ERA over 2166 innings. From 1996 to 1998, his best seasons, he had a 2.33 ERA over 717 innings. Good for a 172 ERA+ (Basically just ERA once you control for the parks where he played, and compared to average; higher is better.) By comparison from 1964 to 1966 Koufax had a 176 ERA+ in 881 innings. So his peak was not quite as good as Koufax's, that's nothing to be ashamed of. 68 WAR/ 40 WAA for him.

Got to run, I'll come up with a third later.

Kevin Brown was listed in the Mitchel Report.

[bn2cardz]

Since this isn't about the best stats not in the HOF here are players that stand out in my memory and make me pause when I run across their cards:

David Eckstein - The only jersey in our house with a name on it. It was my wife's jersey, he was the MVP in 2006 WS. The 2006 Playoffs and WS was the start of our relationship. I had extra tickets to a playoff game and put out the offer to my Bible Study group and she was willing to go. Then she was willing to pay her half to go to the World Series with me. We just hung out as friends at that time, but then never stopped hanging out.


JD Drew - My older sister loved looking for his cards, and I would seek out what I could to help her out. This 'crush' helped my sister and I bond over baseball cards.


Mark Grace - Very much a different person than the other two listed. A Cub and had many vices. I always thought he was a great player as a child so when the Cubs came to St. Louis I went to the visiting side during batting practice and asked for his auto. He obliged and was very polite even though I was wearing Cardinals clothes. When I turned to leave (because I got the player I wanted) some Cubs fans stopped me and told me they couldn't believe Grace had done that because they follow the team around and can never get him to sign and have never seen him sign during batting practice. That stood out to me and made me a real fan of his even if he played on the Cubs and I was in St. Louis.

[gnpaden]

Fred McGriff, Kenny Lofton and Tony Oliva.

[stlcardsfan]

Here are three guys that played for the Cardinals for quite a bit of their career. I am sure almost every team could come up with three players that they think should be in.

Jim Edmonds - nearly identical career batting numbers to Duke Snider, and a great fielder.

Ted Simmons - would be in if a guy named Johnny Bench wasn't playing at the same time.

Lee Smith - dominant closer of his time with a ton of saves. I know closers don't get much love in HOF though.

[bravos4evr]

However, I still feel like a pitcher who went 22-10 had a better year than a guy who went 9-13, regardless of advanced metrics. I suspect the two pitchers in question would agree. I'm not saying the former is the better pitcher in vacuo...just that he had a better year.

hmm, in 2010 Felix Hernandez had an ERA of 2.27 over 249 innings and yet only had a record of 13-12 (yet he won the Cy Young that year)

The league leaders in wins were CC Sabathia 21-7 with a 3.18 ERA , Lester at 19-9 with a 3.25 ERA and David Price with a 19-6 record and 2.72 ERA.

Felix had an ERA nearly half a pt better than the nearest win leader yet he had a mediocre record. why? he played for a bad team.

pitcher wins really have very little merit anymore. a guy can throw 8 scoreless , have a 4-0 lead, and the pen can come in and blow it, then the team walk off in the btm of the inning and the guy who blew it gets the win!

[bravos4evr]

anyway back to the task at hand!

3 more guys

1- Bobby Grich

2-Lou Whittaker

3-Alan Trammel

[steve B]

lots of excellent choices. Hard to pick a top 3. I'll go with 3 I really liked, two already mentioned one not.

1)Munson
2)Parker
3) Dwight Evans. (Like the other 3 really should be in, but fell just short of what used to be sure thing stats, and got knocked off the ballot by one super strong group in I think his 4th year. )

Plus one not yet eligible who I think should be in, but won't be.
Jason Varitek.

More no-hitters as a catcher than anyone, and a load of the intangibles that everyone ignores. Not a great hitter, but not horrible. Fielding etc was hurt by catching Wakefield so often.
No, he won't get in.


Steve B

[bnorth]

Tony Oliva and Fred McGriff.

[talkinbaseball]

Hodges,Mattingly & Thurman.

[Brianruns10]

Hodges, Adcock & Minoso for me.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Hodges, Mattingly and Dahlen but I also agree that numbers are not everything so Minoso, O'Neil and Maris would be great with me. Actually so many great names have been listed that I think many of us could be happy with.

Unlike others I do feel that character is a very important factor in the Hall selections. There is no way to correct the errors of the past but it separates the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Pro Football Hall of Fame which in my opinion is fine but the lack of character in many of their selections reflects the win at all costs attitude that has damaged the league and has had a profound negative effect on college football and the current problems facing the NCAA.

[nat]

Dahlen is a good pick. Most of the guys who the vet's committee has considered in the past few years are underwhelming, but Dahlen deserves election.

Allen had a short career for a hall of famer. 7300 plate appearances just isn't that many. He's at 58 WAR, which is right around the point that players start being serious hall of fame candidates (acknowledging that Frisch and friends from the old vet's committee put in lots of guys with lower totals). He's probably more valuable than those 58 WAR would indicate, however, since he squeezed them into a short time span. (Since winning the pennant requires above-average performance, concentrated great performance is more valuable to a team than is consistent good performance.) Given the hall's standards, he wouldn't a bad choice, although I'm sort of the fence about him.

Walker was better. Only 700 more plate appearances, but 14 additional WAR. Basically, if you took Dick Allen's career, and stuck on Babe Ruth's best season, you'd have Walker's career. (At least in terms of total value, of course Walker never had a single season in which he put up 14 WAR.) It's easy to penalize players too strongly for having played in Colorado, and I think that voters often do. Home-road splits are useful, but they have their limitations. One is that, on average, everybody performs better than expected at home. So you don't want to adjust for Colorado by just doubling a player's road numbers, that would be an unfair penalty to the Rockie. OPS+ is already adjusted for park, and Walker's career total is 141. The same as Alex Rodriguez, Andrew McCutchen, and David Ortiz. Imagine a guy who hit like David Ortiz and was a great fielder, that's Walker.

(And an aside, because I was looking at the OPS+ leader board. Mike Trout is currently 9th, all time. One point ahead of Ty Cobb. Sure it'll go down before he retires, but any time an active player is beating Ty Cobb at something you need to note it.)

[nat]

Since it keeps coming up (especially in my posts), maybe a brief explanation of Wins Above Replacement (WAR) is in order.

The idea is to quantify how much value a player produced, in a way that allows you to compare players across teams and across eras. If the player hadn't been playing, there would have been an open roster spot on his team, which would probably have been filled by some guy from AAA. The performance of that AAA guy is the "replacement" from the stat's name. So WAR tries to calculate how many wins a player would generate for a random team (the randomness is necessary to allow cross-team comparisons), beyond what would be produced by the kind of AAA player that every organization has hanging around.

They do this by finding the "run expectancy" of every event that the player takes part in. Because baseball keeps very good records we know, for example, how many runs, on average, are scored after a player hits a single (or a double, or steals a base, or gets caught stealing, or strikes out, or etc.) That number is the run expectancy for the event. The last time I saw a table setting these out (which was a few years ago, so the numbers in this post are a bit out of date) the run expectancy of a single was about 0.3. The run expectancy of a home run is 1.4. (It's greater than one because there are often players on base when a home run is hit.) We do this with defensive plays too (although it's a bit more complicated with defense). Adding all of those up gives us how many runs the player would have been expected to produce, had he been playing for a random team. We then subtract the number of runs our replacement player (the guy from AAA) would have been expected to produce. That leaves us with the player's net contribution to scoring and preventing runs. Then we divide those numbers by the number of runs scored (or prevented) that it takes, on average, to win a ball game. And the resulting number is the player's WAR.

Edit: Here's a rough guide for what's a good/bad WAR total. Major league average players produce about 2 WAR in a full season. Bench players might get 0.5 to 1. The league MVP usually has around 8 (although there's lots of variation on this). Mike Trout has been averaging about 9 per year. The best season from a position player was Ruth's 1923, which was worth 14. The highest season WAR total ever was Tim Keefe's 1883, which was worth 20 WAR, because he pitched more than 600 innings that year. The best post-1920 pitching season was Dwight Gooden's 1985, worth 13 WAR. It usually takes about 60 WAR to make you a serious hall of fame candidate, although plenty of guys have gotten in with less than that, and a few with higher totals have been left out. Babe Ruth has the all-time career record, with 183 WAR. Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Barry Bonds are next, with figures in the 160 range.

[midwaylandscaping]

Hall wouldn't be hurt by adding these 3:

Dale Murphy, Gil Hodges, Dwight Evans

[hoebob69]

Jim Edmonds,Fred Mcgriff and David Justice. Loved those guys growing up!

[Touch'EmAll]

Roger Maris and Bo Jackson - were these two not famous?