Hall of Fame Announces "Old Timers" Ballot

[earlywynnfan]

I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

I paid a LOT of attention to baseball in the 90's, with the Tribe finally being good. With the exception of Rick Reilly's Sosa-chasing article, virtually NOBODY was complaining. Everybody could see it, but nobody complained. How many of you guys went to games? How many took up sides and cheered for McGwire or Sosa? Or Bonds or Clemens??

For about a decade in the 2000's, the big beat writer for Cleveland's newspaper would absolutely rail against steroids. Yet I read him every day in 1998, and he never said a word!! No writers I read did. And these people were in the clubhouses, were constantly around the players. I send this guy emails commending him on his firm stance 10 years after the fact, but never got a reply.

Selig and Fehr were the point people of the steroid era, sure, but anyone in and around baseball at the time was involved. If any of us who went to games, cheered the home runs, is calling out Selig now, I say we're hypocrites.

[packs]

I really don't understand the Steinbrenner hate. Some of you guys collect Comiskey, how can you hate Steinbrenner and call him a criminal but collect Comiskey? The same goes for Tom Yawkey. The guy actively worked against integrating his team, so much so that they were the last team to integrate. He's in though, isn't he?

[bxb]

The committee votes December 5th.

Anyone know who's on the committee?

[MartyFromCANADA]

I am a die hard Blue Jay fan, and have a ferocious hatred of the Yankees, but, Mr. Steinbrenner is a HOFer. No Doubt.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I'm impressed at the raw hatred for Selig about steroids. Yes, I think they are and were wrong. But where was this venom in the 90's? I know forums like this didn't exist then, but can anyone show me anything written then about how awful they were? Any articles? Letters to the editor?

For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

For me, the hatred came on later. The home run chases were great to watch, even if I knew it wasn't on the level. I was smart enough to know what was going on and knew it wasn't a small percentage of players.

The problem with Selig came well afterwards when people started praising him for cleaning up baseball. He is the one who was in charge and let it get out of hand. He didn't start cleaning it up on his own, it had to be pushed on baseball to straighten up.

The fact that Selig and the owners went from making fortunes over these players while turning a blind eye, to acting shocked when they found out and getting zero blame, makes me mad. It's maddening because many people just went along with it and the players are the only ones getting hurt.

Him and the owners getting any praise for what they did would be like a parent being the getaway driver as their kids rob banks, getting 60% of what they stole, then getting a parent of the year award for letting them go to jail for life after they've already been sentenced.

In fact, I would vote in any steroid era player before I voted in an owner, league president or commissioner from that era. The players were the ones who were paid more and given the incentive to do steroids to keep up with the other players doing it. The people in charge encouraged that era, they deserve blame, not praise, and definitely not a Hall of Fame plaque, that's just ridiculous to even consider.

I'd like any guy on here with a little kid to try a Selig experiment. Give your kid crayons and tell them to color a wall in the house until they get caught and make sure you are sitting there watching them do it the whole time. Then tell your wife you had no idea what was going on, paint the wall, and then let me know how big your father of the year trophy is when you get it.

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

One flaw in your analogy is that my wife knew what was going on, the neighbors knew, the grandparents knew, and the CHILDREN knew it was wrong. And in the end, nobody got punished!

[earlywynnfan]

Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Let's not forget, Schuerholz and Steinbrenner padded their accomplishments on the backs of steroid players, too.

Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

[glchen]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Who did Schuerholz have? Sheffield for a year? Rocker for a few? Who?


b

David Justice

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

What players got hurt? The ones also making millions? Or the ones who continued to cheat after penalties were put in place?

You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

[GasHouseGang]

I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I know it's not a popular opinion because of the steroid issue, but I'd vote for McGwire. The great home run race between McGwire and Sosa in 1998 reenergized baseball, and in fact, steroids just might have saved baseball.

After the 1994 baseball strike the fans were fed up. When play resumed in a shortened 1995 season, attendance, as compared to the full 1993 season, dropped by some 12% on a per-game basis across the league. And that was even while clubs kept ticket prices down. Fans still weren't showing up in 1996, when attendance was about 9% off the 1993 mark.

Then in 1998, Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa brought fans back to baseball to witness their battle to win the home-run race and pass the long-standing Maris record. Suddenly baseball became popular again. From 1995 to 2001, attendance at games was up 44%. The average ticket price for a baseball game had gone from $10.65 to $18.99 -- a 78% increase. Major League Baseball revenue increased by some 115%. Americans had fallen back in love with baseball. League revenue grew from $1.4 billion in 1995 to $3.7 billion in 2001. Plus, the average value of an MLB franchise went from $115 million in 1995 to $286 million in 2001 -- an annual growth rate of 15.3%.

I don't believe the players should be punished for something that everyone knew was going on. The owners were happy to let it happen because of the increased revenue. No doubt about it, home runs put people in the seats. The steroid era was a black eye for baseball on one hand, a savior on the other.

+1

[Eric72]

Personally, I hope McGwire makes it into the HOF. I know there are those who would keep him out because of PEDs, and I respect that. However, he helped to bring baseball back during the late 1990s and did so in dramatic fashion.

I realize there was an entire generation of players that (more often than not) broke the rules. I'm just not as willing to keep all of them out of the hall as others.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

You're joking, right? What person who you talked to during that time and up until now puts any blame on anyone except the players? Think of how the players from that era are treated, and then think about people like Bud Selig and George Steinbrenner even being discussed as possible future Hall of Famers. The players were destroyed in a public court, while owners/Selig were congratulated for cleaning up the game when they were forced to do so.

There was a night and day difference how players got treated vs owners/Selig for the same thing. They were all responsible for the era, but not only did one group take 100% of the blame, the other group came out looking like heroes while also pocketing a fortune. The players made money then, but the best ones clearly lost future earnings.

Bud Selig got paid $18M per year at the end of his contract and he's still getting paid millions per year in retirement.

I have NEVER heard anybody refer to baseball owners and leadership as "heroes" for "cleaning up baseball." Every person I've heard of who had half a brain and a smidge of baseball knowledge feels the whole thing was botched from the beginning and more "CYA" than actually caring about the sport or players' health. And yes, I include Bud in that.

As for "100% of the blame," I agree that that may be true from some angles, and I stated in the beginning I feel that blame should be spread out among the rulers, players, media, and fans. However, I adamantly believe that I lay the majority of the blame for steroid use on the heads of the players who took the steroids.

How about a more direct analogy: for several years, your government, at the behest of the banking industry, relaxed regulations to the point of there seemingly not being any. Lo and behold, the financial geniuses do all kinds of shady, crummy deals and what happens? The biggest recession in 80 years. Many people blamed the banks and investment companies (many of us are still hoping some heads will roll,) but nobody condemns the government for their role. Why???