HOF -> Bonds & clemens

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

Ben I suppose one could make fine distinctions and say steroids are more powerful, or have a more direct effect or whatever, but turning a blind eye to the era of "greenies" whilst condemning all steroid partakers does seem a bit inconsistent.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ben I suppose one could make fine distinctions and say steroids are more powerful, or have a more direct effect or whatever, but turning a blind eye to the era of "greenies" whilst condemning all steroid partakers does seem a bit inconsistent.

They do different things but very similar at the same time.

Steroids let you instantly recover from insane workouts.

Amphetamines let you do insane workouts without getting tired.

Now stack the 2 so you can do insane workouts without getting tired and recovery instantly and you have a winning combination.

[jiw98]

As long as there is competition the competitors will look for an edge. This includes PED's, greenies, sand paper, etc.
If a player cheats only once that player is still a cheater. That said how many cheaters are already in the HOF?
Just sayin

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The best explanation I ever herd went something like this: Amphetamines were taken with the intent of being able to perform the way you normally would. Steroids were taken with the intent of performing better than you ever could.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

The best explanation I ever herd went something like this: Amphetamines were taken with the intent of being able to perform the way you normally would. Steroids were taken with the intent of performing better than you ever could.

If you think this you should listen to Dock Ellis describe the effects and the locker room culture of the era in the No No: A Dockumentary film.

Also, if anyone thinks that steroids were non-existent in major sports in the 70s when the East Germans had a systematic doping program in place since 73' is delusional to me. The money and importance of performance was enough to have had players experiment, esp after the 76 Olympics. Lyle Alzado was open about taking them his entire career starting in college in 1969'. If a college kid could find them, a Pro sure as heck could. Yes, not saying they did, but The Mick, Clemente and even Aaron all had ample opportunity.

Hell, Pud Galvin is the first admitted anabolic juicer in 1889!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

They do different things but very similar at the same time.

Steroids let you instantly recover from insane workouts.

Amphetamines let you do insane workouts without getting tired.

Now stack the 2 so you can do insane workouts without getting tired and recovery instantly and you have a winning combination.

The way steroids was explained to me by an ex weightlifter/wrestler (Who claimed to be clean ) Was very close to that. He said that they made the recovery quick enough that you could work out pretty hard every day instead of needing light days or days off, essentially doubling or tripling your training time.

Steve B

[hysell]

So {ALL} HOFers that didn"t play vrs blacks,how great can there stat"s be?They were great only vrs {WHITE} players!So let's throw there stats out ,to!Then there is not many HOFers left! I do not think Jim Thome or Griffey used,if Griffey did, it just didn"t work for all the years he missed,did it!Robert.

[dgo71]

Again, in my mind the arguement isn't amphetamines versus steroids, or the spitball or whatever form of cheating comes up. My arguement is that whether or not people already inducted cheated, why exacerbate the problem by admitting more cheaters? Nobody ever claimed Mantle, Mays, etc were cheaters prior to their election. That came up years later. So if we'd like to address that problem, then we need to discuss baseball deciding to get in the business of stripping awards and achievements, a la the Olympic committee. Since that is never going to happen, the issue really is do we continue to elect cheaters even with the benefit of hindsight.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because it was just like drinking a cup of coffee. Seriously Peter I have seen morons use that excuse. I would say because that was their favorite era and their favorite players took them so that gives them a free pass.

Also Raymond if there was a way to prove it I would bet everything I own your list of clean players has more than 1 steroid user on it.

I know if I had my future and my reputation linked to the 'extras' I knowingly took, I would also use some of my Big Money on the very best masking agents available.

But, if you gain forty pounds of fat-free muscle after the age of 35, something's definitely not right.

Another important point - which shouldn't matter, but does - Hall of Fame elections are also popularity contests....and we are talking about two of the all-time biggest jerks. There will be no biographies of these guys long after they're dead saying that they were, in fact, not that bad. These were two arrogant bastards who feel they are better than the Game.

How many times does that lesson have to be learned?


.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why was it ok to use amphetamines?

Who said it was? Without getting into the actual scientific differences between amphetamines and metabolic steroids, I'll just say that Mickey Mantle's head didn't grow 3 cap sizes. The whole amphetamine debate didn't surface in earnest until the PED era, long after those players' careers were over and most were already enshrined. It was an attempt to make steroid use seem ok, by deflection. And yes, there are different levels of cheating and intent goes a long way IMO. I don't think the players in the 60s thought "I'll take these little pills and jack 50 home runs so I'll be ridiculously rich one day." Insane workouts? Those guys' idea of an insane workout was picking up two women at the bar at 2am when they had a noon start the next day. Bonds and company were far more malicious in their cheating and I do think that matters. When you hear stories of A-Rod hiring someone to destroy documents and things like that, it tells you these guys absolutely knew what they were doing was completely wrong. All that aside, even if it was conceded that Mantle, Aaron, or whoever is lumped into the greenie era were cheaters, but got away with it, does that just give us all carte blanche to knowingly and willfully admit all future cheaters? Two wrongs making a right? Is Bonds being a petulant, spoiled brat because Sosa and McGwire were grabbing the headlines the kind of lore the HOF should preserve for future generations? Because if he goes in, that is an important part of his story and should be right there on his plaque. I understand there are two distinct camps when it comes to this matter but regardless of what mistakes were made previously, I feel there should be real consequences to these players' actions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Each generation has done what it can to gain an edge, and used what was then available. If anabolics were readily available to the Mantle and Mays generation, I have little doubt many of that generation would have used. I think it's fantasy to pretend those guys somehow were morally superior.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Each generation has done what it can to gain an edge, and used what was then available. If anabolics were readily available to the Mantle and Mays generation, I have little doubt many of that generation would have used. I think it's fantasy to pretend those guys somehow were morally superior.

Baseball didn't have a drug policy prior to 1971, so those guys weren't breaking the rules. Fay Vincent sent a memo to all clubs in 1991 stating that steroids were illegal. So, anyone using them after that were cheating and should be barred from the hof. Personally, I would hold those from 71-91 to the same standard, but I can see a grey area. As far as guys using supplements like Andro, Baseball didn't suspend those guys, so they were saying they weren't cheating at that time and they should only be punished if they used after those substances were actually banned.

I will also add this. Steroids are known to cause serious health problems. Especially in youngsters. Anphetamin doesn't unless they are abused. Those players who used steroids caused a lot of kids who looked up to them to harm themselves. To me that is far worse than the cheating.