OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[Exhibitman]

I used to be in the group of PEDs = never even if only based on hunches like body type or acne. At this point, with Selig enshrined, I'd draw the line at actually caught cheating or admitted to cheating: McGwire, A-Rod, Palmiero, and especially Manny. How f'ing dumb was that guy to get caught twice. I am still on the fence re Bonds and Clemens. I think the evidence in the criminal trials was enough to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt, Bonds even moreso than Clemens. He is a smart man and only an absolute idiot would have believed that the Balco concoctions were vitamins and oils. He engaged in what Nixon used to call "plausible deniability". That said, he and Clemens were legit HOF caliber players without the PEDs, so I expect to see them in the HOF eventually.

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history. If he had played in any other era he would have been considered the best leadoff guy in baseball, but there was Rickey. Most of his cumulative numbers are in the top 150 players of all time. 5th all time in SB, 38th all time in walks. His SB average was the best ever for anyone with 400+ SB. He had seven consecutive seasons over 70 SB. No one else has ever done that. His 162 game average was 102 runs scored. He wasn't a Rickey or a Ty or a Willie, but he clearly belongs among the top 200 players of all time. IMO that's HOF material.

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history.

You are correct of course concerning the teams Raines played on, but in the twilight of his career he was still good enough to be a contributor to arguably one of the greatest teams of all time.

He was also really the only player who lost peak playing time due to the collusion of major league owners.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

You are correct of course concerning the teams Raines played on, but in the twilight of his career he was still good enough to be a contributor to arguably one of the greatest teams of all time.

He was also really the only player who lost peak playing time due to the collusion of major league owners.

The Expos teams Raines played for were actually pretty good. The problem was not bad teams but the fact that they were north of the border.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

1991 Topps Stadium club RC of Jeff Bagwells was one of my first "Big Cards" to pull. Being a Rangers fan, I got to see Pudge play in 94. I love this class. If would have been perfect is Vladdy had made it.

Not surprising, but glad to see they are getting some love. I remember buying many packs of 91 Stadium Club cards and was always thrilled whenever I pulled a Bagwell. One of my favorite players during that, and no mention/talk of PED's.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_prod...temCondition=4

Originally Posted by sycks22

I'm with Bagwell / Pudge, but against Raines. His first year of voting he got 24% and never got higher than 5th in MVP voting. He also never had 200 hits in a year, but had over 700 abs in 4 years. He played forever to get his 2800 hits and averaged only 163 hits per season. The last 13 years of his career he never received an MVP vote, never made an all-star team. He was good, but never great.

You are missing a few points for some reason?
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035

[campyfan39]

I'll take Gil and Shil over all three of them!

[sycks22]

You are missing a few points for some reason?
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035[/QUOTE]


I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great

[rats60]

Originally Posted by sycks22

You are missing a few points for some reason?
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode...fame-1.3929035

I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great[/QUOTE]

He walked a lot. That is somehow supposed to make up for him not being a great hitter. 135th in OBP right between Earl Torgeson and Tim Salmon, two great players. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was fast and stole a lot of bases. Let's start a campaign to elect Eddie Yost and Darrell Evans to the hof.

[rdixon1208]

Originally Posted by rats60

I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great

I agree with this. He was pretty good, but not a HOF player in my opinion. Baseball-Reference also has him as below average HOF in every statistical category (black ink, grey ink, HOF standards, etc.).

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by rats60

I'm missing that he had over 800 stolen bases? 2,600 hits for a 24 year career is far from impressive. Bill Buckner had more hits in less years, is he a hall of famer? One category (SB's) shouldn't be the main reason to get someone in the hall. Kenny Lofton led the lead in sbs the same amount as Raines and had a higher career batting average, should he be in? Raines was above average, not great

He walked a lot. That is somehow supposed to make up for him not being a great hitter. 135th in OBP right between Earl Torgeson and Tim Salmon, two great players. He wasn't a good defensive player. He was fast and stole a lot of bases. Let's start a campaign to elect Eddie Yost and Darrell Evans to the hof.[/QUOTE]

agree

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I used to be in the group of PEDs = never even if only based on hunches like body type or acne. At this point, with Selig enshrined, I'd draw the line at actually caught cheating or admitted to cheating: McGwire, A-Rod, Palmiero, and especially Manny. How f'ing dumb was that guy to get caught twice. I am still on the fence re Bonds and Clemens. I think the evidence in the criminal trials was enough to convict them beyond a reasonable doubt, Bonds even moreso than Clemens. He is a smart man and only an absolute idiot would have believed that the Balco concoctions were vitamins and oils. He engaged in what Nixon used to call "plausible deniability". That said, he and Clemens were legit HOF caliber players without the PEDs, so I expect to see them in the HOF eventually.

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams and play in the shadow of the greatest leadoff man in history. If he had played in any other era he would have been considered the best leadoff guy in baseball, but there was Rickey. Most of his cumulative numbers are in the top 150 players of all time. 5th all time in SB, 38th all time in walks. His SB average was the best ever for anyone with 400+ SB. He had seven consecutive seasons over 70 SB. No one else has ever done that. His 162 game average was 102 runs scored. He wasn't a Rickey or a Ty or a Willie, but he clearly belongs among the top 200 players of all time. IMO that's HOF material.

Bonds admitted under oath to doping. I don't see how you can be on the fence about Bonds and say no to McGwire when Bonds admitted to cheating.

[seanofjapan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for Raines, he was unfortunate enough to play for mostly crappy teams

I hate to nitpick (well, OK really I love to), but this statement is the complete opposite of reality. Throughout his career he was almost always on winning teams.

He spent the first 12 seasons of his career with the Expos (1979 to 1990), during which time the team only had two seasons with losing records (1984 and 1986, and even then they were close to 500). While they only made the playoffs once in that time frame they were constant contenders and had a lot of 2nd place finishes - they were arguably one of the best teams in the NL throughout the 80s (though they didn't get much attention for it), hardly a "crappy" team.

Then he spent the next 5 seasons with the White Sox, in 4 of which the Sox had winning seasons including 2 first place finishes.

Then three seasons with the Yankees, in every one of which they made the playoffs and in two of which they won the World Series.

Then he had two more part time seasons with a few teams, some of which were crappy, but are hardly significant parts of his career.

Really he played most of his career for great teams, but for various reasons he was either a big fish in a little pond (his Expos years) or a little fish in a big pond (his Yankees days) so he didn't get the spotlight much.