Helmar Discussion and Debate Here

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

To each his own, as said above. Many of them are really cool looking. But to my eyes, a lot of work also goes into making a decent knock off Rolex. That doesn't make it a collector's item.

Thanks for your post. From time to time I've heard variations of your "knock off/not a collector item" position. And I've discussed this theme with detractors in the past. The nut of the issue seems to be that some collectors think that our Helmar cards detract from and lessen the value of the collections that the collectors have worked so hard to build. In that light the collectors are viewing our Helmar cards as a threat of some sort. You can recognize this mind-set in a few of the posts from over the last few years. Logically I think those collectors know that this is a silly argument but they are looking at it from a emotional view, not a logical one. I'm not referring to you by any means. Charles

[GregMitch34]

I can "swing both ways." Last night (see the May pickups thread) I bought three new Helmars--and a classic 1910 Red Sun. I go largely by aesthetics, old or new, so Helmars interest me a good deal. Could care less if they go up in value. It's funny that so many here will write, "by the card, not the holder," testify against such a focus on valuation, and then knock on Helmars. As far as I know, Charles has never promised that value will go up. Here's one of my latest, which is 3 X 6 and evokes old-time trolley ads: http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1496270864

[insidethewrapper]

I never had one of these cards, do they have a copyright on them such as 2017 ? I wouldn't want any dealers selling these as 100 year old cards to new collectors.

[sirraffles]

Hi Mike. You'll find that we've discussed this aspect at great length (and to my satisfaction) in prior years. Thanks, Charles RE: selling cards to new collectors that think they are old cards

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Thanks for your post. From time to time I've heard variations of your "knock off/not a collector item" position. And I've discussed this theme with detractors in the past. The nut of the issue seems to be that some collectors think that our Helmar cards detract from and lessen the value of the collections that the collectors have worked so hard to build. In that light the collectors are viewing our Helmar cards as a threat of some sort. You can recognize this mind-set in a few of the posts from over the last few years. Logically I think those collectors know that this is a silly argument but they are looking at it from a emotional view, not a logical one. I'm not referring to you by any means. Charles

No offense taken. I just collect cards because of the genuine connection to the past. Someone held this card in their hands in 1920. Connects me to something bigger than my life. I can't feel that with a new creation of a vintage player.

[Jason19th]

All images prior to 1923 and most prior to 1964 would be in public domain and therefore copyright would not apply. The issue of trademark would be a bit trickier and the cards are probably a technical violation of trade mark. I highly doubt however that anyone would ever take action in part because I believe that you have to show some harm by the use and that would be difficult to show. I actual own the image that was used for the T206 Luis Padron and thought it was short of cool when I saw the card

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

All images prior to 1923 and most prior to 1964 would be in public domain and therefore copyright would not apply. The issue of trademark would be a bit trickier and the cards are probably a technical violation of trade mark. I highly doubt however that anyone would ever take action in part because I believe that you have to show some harm by the use and that would be difficult to show. I actual own the image that was used for the T206 Luis Padron and thought it was short of cool when I saw the card

That's not necessarily true. There are some public figures, and I am sure Ruth is among them, whose images are rights managed.

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

No offense taken. I just collect cards because of the genuine connection to the past. Someone held this card in their hands in 1920. Connects me to something bigger than my life. I can't feel that with a new creation of a vintage player.

I understand but I'd guess that you've never actually held one of our cards in you hands. Maybe you'd be surprised. I'd humbly suggest that a great part of the reason we've had success is because collectors do feel that we provide that spark.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

I understand but I'd guess that you've never actually held one of our cards in you hands. Maybe you'd be surprised. I'd humbly suggest that a great part of the reason we've had success is because collectors do feel that we provide that spark.

My pet peeve with these cards is that whoever is selling them keeps listing them in the wrong categories on eBay. I am sick of wading through hundreds of BS listings that don't match the category in which I am interested. Some moron keeps listing hundreds of these 'fantasy' or 'Broder' or 'unlicensed' or whatever baseball cards in the boxing category. It has become such a PITA that I have started reporting them to eBay (for all the good that will do).

[sirraffles]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

My pet peeve with these cards is that whoever is selling them keeps listing them in the wrong categories on eBay. I am sick of wading through hundreds of BS listings that don't match the category in which I am interested. Some moron keeps listing hundreds of these 'fantasy' or 'Broder' or 'unlicensed' or whatever baseball cards in the boxing category. It has become such a PITA that I have started reporting them to eBay (for all the good that will do).

Not us, my friend. Not sure who you are referring to.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by sirraffles

Not us, my friend. Not sure who you are referring to.

Some cockroach who posts under the name "oak-vault". He posts these stupid cards with pennies in them, fake zeenuts, and lately a ton of Helmar stamp cards (so forgive the confusion).



it appears that my complaints are working as most of the junk has been removed from the category.

As for these tribute cards or whatever, I buy them from time to time, primarily when they depict a boxer not on other cards at the time



and I've bid on some of the fantasy cards of the sort under discussion here, so I have no inherent bias against them, just a dislike for wasting my time on them when they are misclassified.

[Leon]

+1 It would be nice if ebay cracked down on the true junk.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Some cockroach who posts under the name "oak-vault". He posts these stupid cards with pennies in them, fake zeenuts, and lately a ton of Helmar stamp cards (so forgive the confusion).



it appears that my complaints are working as most of the junk has been removed from the category.

As for these tribute cards or whatever, I buy them from time to time, primarily when they depict a boxer not on other cards at the time



and I've bid on some of the fantasy cards of the sort under discussion here, so I have no inherent bias against them, just a dislike for wasting my time on them when they are misclassified.