What the hell is the deal with this PWCC auction

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone wants to buy an arbitrary 10 flip so be it. I would bet anything that raw or with the flip hidden you couldn't pick it out in a group of 9s. I started the thread because of the four retractions two of which were by a bidder with 14 retractions (the other only had 9 LOL), not the price.

I have one EBAY ID. I would imagine you do too. There are plenty who don't. The two bidders might have several other ID's for all we know and will bid under another name anyway.


You guys are expecting perfection and it is never coming.


Get mad at EBAY and write their CEO everyday. Until they change their policy the bid retractions aren't going away. As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.


Until then they will continue to offer the best cards on EBAY month after month.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own "policy."

There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

There are grey areas within many policies. I have never retracted a bid but I have been involved in a few and it might be four to six bids that are retracted from one auction. Maybe they take other issues into account when holding a hard line. Honestly if I was a seller and someone had spent 60k with me and as pointed out probably has sold cards too, I would cut them some slack in some cases. Maybe this is one of them.

Everyone thinks they are a sleuth, myself included and many times we simply get it wrong. Just looking at bids and percentages and so on doesn't always tell the entire story.

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fine, but then don't (PWCC, not you) come on here with all these sanctimonious posts about your policies and supposed anti-fraud efforts. If you are going to talk a big game, then live up to it.

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Their critics arent satisfied because their answers arent satisfactory much of the time. And i am not hiding behind a keyboard i have had much personal communication with brent and he knows my views on things.

[tothrk]

I have a policy of never bidding in a PWCC auction but considering the shipping is only $30 for this card, I might make a run at it. Also, I'd love to know the history of this card.

[drmondobueno]

but only after my next consignment sells

-Drmondobueno, after 4 Guinness, a visit to the local priest, and a load of truth serum

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

C'mon now. That's naive. Look at it from a business standpoint. What was their motivation to institute, and more importantly, publicly state their stance against bid retractions? Because they determined that in the long run it would help their business, and profits. Fine.

But why go public with the policy at all? If you run your business with integrity you don't need to shout about it. Just do it. People will figure it out on their own. They went public because they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. And at this point, it seems to have backfired.

But remember, PWCC is the one who took to the internet and shouted, "We're the ones you can trust." Well, if you're going to go public about it and use it to market your company, you can't complain when people call you on it, can you?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

C'mon now. That's naive. Look at it from a business standpoint. What was their motivation to institute, and more importantly, publicly state their stance against bid retractions? Because they determined that in the long run it would help their business, and profits. Fine.

But why go public with the policy at all? If you run your business with integrity you don't need to shout about it. Just do it. People will figure it out on their own. They went public because they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. And at this point, it seems to have backfired.

But remember, PWCC is the one who took to the internet and shouted, "We're the ones you can trust." Well, if you're going to go public about it and use it to market your company, you can't complain when people call you on it, can you?

First of all just by looking at the shear volume of listings they have I am not so sure it has hurt their business. It might have been five years or so ago when I first came across their auctions as I liked to see what higher end cards were selling for. They averaged in the low 2,000 listings per auction and it was monthly if I recall.

Fast forward to today and that number has sky rocketed. There are segments of the card market that have clearly come down since their attempt at policing auctions and it is probably for two reasons. One they weeded out some bad actors and two the prices on some of the cards had risen so sharply it brought on a lot of supply. They might have actually benefited from the increase in supply. In 2008 and into 2009 people like me actually made more money at the time from people selling out of their investments and then getting into more conservative ones. The market was collapsing but my commission run was rising.

How much did their policy affect their profits? Obviously you or I have no clue but if their listings increased during that time period and they were able to auction off Pop 1's like this, it is very possible their business hasn't declined at all.

I think when Brent started posting a year and a half or so ago it was a good thing. I thought he did a good job at articulating that they were aware of some problems and it seemed sincere to this naive person. That said the crowd hasn't gotten any quieter and in the past six months since Betsy took over it hasn't helped. Like I said I would just go silent and run their business and let the market dictate their success. I also think they need to be careful with what they say as it could be used against them in court and getting into back and forth responses with people on the Internet about sensitive issues doesn't seem wise.

If you look at that situation with the Dimagio card they are dealing with a loose cannon and there is no winning a pissing contest with a person like that behind a computer screen.

If PWCC is so bad then someone out there should come up with a better model and put them out of business. In the mean time from what I can see their lead and market share just keeps growing so they are doing something right.

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

If I were their PR firm I would do what Rick Probstein did and stop posting all together. Every time they post their haters aren't satisfied with the answer and in some cases they have made the perception even worse.

Personally I like the transparency of them attempting to respond but in many cases in life just telling your side of the story gets you no where.

One of the tough parts about Internet communication is there are a lot of tough guys behind a keyboard. Just look at any news story that hits a social media site.

With so many harsh critics they will never win the debate so don't even have one.

He hasn't been relevant in a very long time in my opinion. It looks like he got the justice that he needed. My guess is, so will PWCC.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79

He hasn't been relevant in a very long time in my opinion. It looks like he got the justice that he needed. My guess is, so will PWCC.

Please clarify your post. Not sure exactly what you mean.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, I don't disagree that ebay condones a great deal of fraud and BS, but again I think you're deflecting attention from the immediate issue which is PWCC's failure to enforce its own stated policy about which it made such a big deal.

Which is why they made a HUGE mistake in making a defined number of retraction their policy. They've already broken it because the guy has spent $60,000 in three months with them. There really is nothing to be gained by them posting anything here at all. If anything they should have made the statement that we will try our best to determine when fraud is happening in our auctions and take action...in the meantime we will try our best to lobby ebay to change the rules on bid retractions.

If anything my guess is that ebay will hide all bidding information from buyers before they ever get rid of retractions. They make a whole lot of money from the fraud they pretend doesn't exist.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

As I said the fact that PWCC is even trying is great for collectors and overtime there will be progress.

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?

[toledo_mudhen]

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

Based on the number of PWCC bidders vs the number of critics on this thread, the latter is small (but vocal) potatoes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

This is their highest or second highest dollar auction. And they claimed to have a full time hire weeding out fraud. Straw man argument imo.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

Wow - Tough crowd here. A quick check shows PWCC with close to 6,000 auctions going on right now. Probably a bit much to police everyone of them. You guys outted this one and Brent responded. No one is forcing you to bid on his auctions.

The excuse of "Probably a bit much to police everyone of them." is a horrible excuse to make for PWCC. That excuse would not fly for any other company, in any other line of business...period.

Imagine someone using an Etrade account as a front for fraudulent manipulation of shares and market prices to gain an advantage, and then Etrade's excuse was "Oh, we're sorry, we're trying REALLY hard to combat fraud on our site but since we have to monitor 175,000 trades daily...you cant expect us to police all of those...do you?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by markf31

The excuse of "Probably a bit much to police everyone of them." is a horrible excuse to make for PWCC. That excuse would not fly for any other company, in any other line of business...period.

Imagine someone using an Etrade account as a front for fraudulent manipulation of shares and market prices to gain an advantage, and then Etrade's excuse was "Oh, we're sorry, we're trying REALLY hard to combat fraud on our site but since we have to monitor 175,000 trades daily...you cant expect us to police all of those...do you?"

Not only that, but how freaking hard is it to police say your 100 most expensive auctions (which is where most of the fraud is going to occur) when you (allegedly) have a full time anti-fraud hire in your employ? Virtually every auction that's been outed on this board has been of a high dollar card. It's a stupid trope we see over and over again here from the make excuses crowd. The Brian Moynihan defense.

[Exhibitman]

I know quite a few collectors who spend really big $$ on cards who won't bid with PWCC at all because of its business practices. They don't post here because they don't care for the trolling experience that all too often results from posting in this forum. Whether their non-participation hurts PWCC's bottom line is impossible to say, but after each round of manipulated pricing from PWCC I hear from more collectors who claim to be bypassing PWCC auctions entirely because of its practices.

As for me, I watch PWCC auctions on items I want but only drop in snipes. Can't recall the last time I won one. I think I got a Probstein win in May.

[iowadoc77]

Great point Mark!
If they are "responsible" for 1 listing then they are responsible for all. If 6,000 listings is too many, then there is a problem. Simple solution- more help to scrutinize each auction or fewer auctions.

[MikeGarcia]

Sorry..usually I try to sneak in a picture of a pre-war baseball player every hundred posts or so but in this particular thread you all are going 'way too fast for an old guy like me ; to make up for my transgression I hereby present the entire complete master set of all Carmen Hill baseball cards. He pitched for the Pirates starting in 1915 at the ripe old age of twenty.

..

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by MikeGarcia

Sorry..usually I try to sneak in a picture of a pre-war baseball player every hundred posts or so but in this particular thread you all are going 'way too fast for an old guy like me ; to make up for my transgression I hereby present the entire complete master set of all Carmen Hill baseball cards. He pitched for the Pirates starting in 1915 at the ripe old age of twenty.

..

Well Done, Sir!
-

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

How many bidders have been banned since PWCC went live with their new bid retraction policy?

I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The haters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Man, those must be some mad hatters...

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Man, those must be some mad hatters...

No spelling bee champ here. Haha

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No spelling bee champ here. Haha

Nor any literary geniuses!

Edited..Nor

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Nor any literary geniuses!

Edited..Nor

Your right. That is why I chose a career path that uses my math skills, economics knowledge and verbal communications skills and it has served me quite well.

[Marchillo]

Hope I don't spell anything wrong!

I'm going to compare this situation to the NFL and Ray Rice and it makes sense in my head so hopefully it makes sense when I type it.

In this example PWCC is the NFL - the all powerful, money generating machine, that can't seem to fail no matter what they do. They know they deliver a superior product and people will continue to pay for it.

So in the Ray Rice case the NFL hands down a 2 game suspension. I personally believe the commissioner (Brent) saw the video prior to handing down the suspension but didn't think it would come out. The NFL only changed the penalty when the video came out TMZ Sports (net54baseball) and Rice hasn't played in a game since. Partly due to the NFL full season suspension and then teams not wanting to deal with the PR nightmare.

But on the flip side how many days was Rice sentenced to serve in jail by the justice system (EBay)? None. So the penalty Rice served was put forth by the NFL (PWCC). Does PWCC have more of a responsibility than EBay? Obviously if they have a hand in hiring bidders or shilling bids then that is a problem. But if there are people doing nefarious (i googled the spelling) things and EBay allows it than what is PWCC's responsibility?

I agree with the OP on this thread and its the issue I have with the NFL (Though I am a Patriots season ticket holder 5x Champs don't hate!). It's not that they let some of these wife beaters, bad guys play in the league, its the holier than thou rhetoric they feed to everyone and think we are a bunch of morons.

At the end of the day the NFL isn't going anywhere, although viewership was down last year. But all these little things do cost them over time. I think it is short sighted by PWCC to allow this person to bid despite the $60K he/she has spent over the past few months. If that person didn't win those items than what do those items go for? Lets say $50K? And what is PWCC's take on $10k less? At the end of the day its a drop in the bucket for them at the same time turning other buyers off from bidding on their items. I for one will be very cautious if not avoid their auctions altogether after reading some of the threads on here. These things add up. And that shortsighted commission from this bidder will probably cost them more money at the end of the day. And at this point they have to know they have a bunch of watchdogs keeping track of their auctions.

OK sorry for the NFL analogy!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Anyone else read the title of the thread in Jerry Seinfeld's voice? If you haven't you will now. You're welcome...

[Bigshot69]

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bigshot69

Do you think this is causing the hat industry to suffer in the near term?

I think it is more long term. I also think it is a benefit because lies like steroids make your head swell up. Once that happens you will need a new hat.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I don't know you tell me.

I haven't seen them release a number and I see so no reason to. The hatters who would care to see a number produced wouldn't believe it anyway so there is nothing to gain for them.

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Why would anyone believe the # if the released it. They come on here and lie about #'s almost every time they post.

I am with you on the they need to just STFU and quit posting their lies over and over. The being quiet works or at least causes way less people to point out your constant lies.

Not like there are any savvy people on here, or anywhere else, who are bidding on their auctions. If there was a card of interest, time has proven even with a bad rep, people will still bid, albeit through a snipe.