Help with a Mantle

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

No opinion on the ball as I'm not much of an autograph collector. But I like reading these threads because I find it interesting how confident people are declaring signatures bad. Often done with such authority that no accompanying explanation is required. Just the word "bad" itself. I don't say that to offend, I just think it's funny.

There seems to be an expectation of precision that would be hard for a machine to replicate never mind a human being. How do you account for being tired or rushed or drunk or in a bad mood or having a sore hand or getting old or countless other considerations.

Judging autographs, including paid certification, seems very arbitrary to me and more than a little dubious. I find it's always best to trust your own opinion and if you think it's good, go for it. Unless you're standing in front of the person when they sign it, nobody will really ever know, with 100% certainty, one way or the other.

Lets see if the second try works.

Here's my take as what most would call a non-autograph collector or since I have a few, either obtained in person or that I fell confident in maybe a casual autograph collector.

Many of the people posting have decades of experience as either collectors or dealers, and have handled a LOT of autographs and no doubt seen a lot of fakes.
In your field would you take the opinion if a coworker with decades of experience, or dismiss it? I know what my choice would be.

In machining (I'll get to the machines stuff later) there's a tool called a go/no go guage. If the part fits one slot but not another it's good if not it's bad.
Anyone who handles the same sort of item for a long time and sees both good and bad builds up a sort of mental library of what's good and what's bad.
The benefit we get here is that in that context the experienced guys are willing to share and help us build the same sort of mental library. Mantle is brought up often enough that I have gotten to the point of making a bit of a game of it. I make my decision, than wait for the opinions I respect to see if I'm right. I've gotten to the point of being able to spot a few bad ones and a few good ones, but not enough that I'd spend any money on my opinion.

Sharing or not sharing the details is probably a difficult decision. If the details are shared, it lets a faker know what mistakes to avoid. If it's not shared the info doesn't get to others, and eventually dies with the person who knew it. I feel what we get here is a great tradeoff, we get to build our mental library, and a faker would have to do some real work to learn.

As far as machines not duplicating things exactly compared to people, duplicating things precisely is exactly what machines do. That's why I had questions on the Dak Prescott autopenned cards. I saw tiny differences that made me think a machine wasn't involved unless there was more than one. But I also saw a really amazing degree of precision. I still don't know if a modern autopen can add tiny differences, but I know the old ones couldn't.

When I look at an autograph to buy I ask myself a few basic questions that lead me to the decision which I mostly base on my confidence it's real and the price.

The biggest is whether the item existed during the players lifetime.
After that,
Does the item make sense
Is it in a commonly faked format, or one that's less valuable or saleable.
Is it priced in a way that makes sense. In other words, would it be sensible for a faker to make the item. Cost of the item vs added value from the autograph. compared to the selling price.
What is the source
What are their other items.

If the answers to those are "right" I feel confident it's real. I could obviously still be wrong, but it's less likely (except for the first question, a no there guarantees a fake) If the answers are "wrong" it could still be real, but unless it's really cheap, I'll usually pass.

I could scan and post a new thread with examples, possibly for the amusement of the more experienced guys Just let me down easy on any I botched.

If you're looking for something close to scientific certainty, you won't usually find it with autographs. I do think that some of the very experienced dealers can get amazingly close though.
It's also good to reject what doesn't really fit as "good" out of caution especially for commonly faked things. Sure, injured, old, drunk, whatever may affect the signature, but those might not be common. (Or as I've heard for Mantle may be very common)

Steve B

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

When I look at an autograph to buy I ask myself a few basic questions that lead me to the decision which I mostly base on my confidence it's real and the price.

The biggest is whether the item existed during the players lifetime.
After that,
Does the item make sense
Is it in a commonly faked format, or one that's less valuable or saleable.
Is it priced in a way that makes sense. In other words, would it be sensible for a faker to make the item. Cost of the item vs added value from the autograph. compared to the selling price.
What is the source
What are their other items.

If the answers to those are "right" I feel confident it's real.

Bingo and good reply. Pretty much what I said in my last paragraph. Trust your gut more than "does that loop in his signature look right?" Conditions are always different. Signatures from the same person look different based on conditions. To think it's that easy to separate the fakes from the real thing is something autograph collectors tell themselves to make them feel better.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

To think it's that easy to separate the fakes from the real thing is something autograph collectors tell themselves to make them feel better.

Now that's amusing.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Now that's amusing.

Very profound input. Almost as profound as the sage advice to "use your eye to view the autograph". All these years we've been using our ears. The forum thanks you.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Very profound input. Almost as profound as the sage advice to "use your eye to view the autograph". All these years we've been using our ears. The forum thanks you.

Everyone has their own method of opining autographs.

I know what works for me and the collectors that I help.

Evidently you're not an autograph collector, so what is your agenda over here?

Or are you just here to agitate us?