Help with a Mantle

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

Agreed. It was well written. Doesn't change my feelings at all but it was a good read.

Assess everything, not just a picture on a computer screen...and trust your gut more than anyone else's.

And of course...Use your eyes to view the autograph. That helps immensely.

Thanks for the compliment, but honestly, I did not write it to change your mind. I wrote it for all those members who might be new or inexperienced with autos and are reading it. I want them to know that your assessment that people's opinions on autos are arbitrary and dubious is, in fact, incorrect.
We agree that using common sense like Steve suggested is worthwhile. You also seem to think that the "gut feeling" is more important than the study of letter formations, the study of the evolution of a specific player's autographs, and player habits. It is not. It is all important to consider when evaluating an auto. You focusing on the gut feeling alone shows your inexperience.
IMO, ignoring the opinion of someone who has more experience and knowledge than you is stupid. It's exactly what you would call someone who has cancer, goes to an oncologist, and then decides they are going to choose different chemo meds because they feel it's better in their "gut," rather than using the opinion of the person who actually knows what they are talking about. It may seem different, but it is not. Refusing to accept knowledge from others who have it is stupid regardless of the circumstances.

You are certainly allowed to have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. Plenty of people thought the world was flat. Perhaps sticking to offering opinions on football pennants might be better for you as it is what you collect and admittedly autos are not. Your continuing this conversation trying to prove your point, especially reusing the comment about using your eyes to view the auto over and over, reminds me of a famous quote often credited to Abe Lincoln... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

[mr2686]

Wait a minute...the worlds not flat? What next, there's no Santa? LOL

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by mr2686

Wait a minute...the worlds not flat? What next, there's no Santa? LOL

nope. No Easter bunny either

[chaddurbin]

i find it amusing that non-auto guys would go to this section to find their entertainment or belittle it w/o knowing jack about signatures.

i had the prewar cards bug for many years (still do), and there is a little learning curve with the cut and coloring and variations, but after awhile you can pretty much distinguish between a trim job or an oven-baked reprint from the gallery picture w/o even clicking into the ebay auction.

autographs is a whole different animal with all the nuances and characteristics and styles...we're talking about thousands upon thousands of different types that could take 2-3 lifetimes to study vs the limited amount of cards/sets. i appreciate and have much more respect for the guys over here than the endless is this real or psa suck sgc bad thread #125...the ironic part is without the tpa at least half the people on the main board wouldn't know how to buy while we'd be doing fine over here if alphabet companies are gone.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

nope. No Easter bunny either

Will this madness never end?

[frankbmd]

I'm sitting here in my recliner with an authentic autographed ball sitting on my gut. Not sure how long I need to wait, but so far my gut is silent.

[Lordstan]

Mike,
Newsflash: No Tooth Fairy

Frank,
We have meds for that issue

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

I'm sitting here in my recliner with an authentic autographed ball sitting on my gut. Not sure how long I need to wait, but so far my gut is silent.

This might help.


Maloxx.jpg

[shelly]

My question is why are you guys even answering him.You are writing full pages of arguments and he is laughing at you.

[Lordstan]

Shelly,
I agree.
As I said in one of my replies, I wrote my points for those silent members who only read and don't comment. I don't want his opinion to become a source of misinformation for those less experienced. The idea that autograph opinions are arbitrary and dubious, like his, do create a negative spin on auto collecting. Opinions in auto collecting are no different than any other subject in life. If you want to know about Black holes, opinions from Astrophysicists carry more weight than those of a Social Worker(no offense to social workers. just needed an example as far away from physics as possible). I try to educate correctly that autos, like all collectibles, do have risk, but can be made safer by study and careful consideration.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Shelly,
I agree.
As I said in one of my replies, I wrote my points for those silent members who only read and don't comment. I don't want his opinion to become a source of misinformation for those less experienced. The idea that autograph opinions are arbitrary and dubious, like his, do create a negative spin on auto collecting. Opinions in auto collecting are no different than any other subject in life. If you want to know about Black holes, opinions from Astrophysicists carry more weight than those of a Social Worker(no offense to social workers. just needed an example as far away from physics as possible). I try to educate correctly that autos, like all collectibles, do have risk, but can be made safer by study and careful consideration.

and many of us are fairly specialized in our collecting (I ONLY collect Braves autos for example and aside from the few of the big stars, only the autos of players from the teams of the 70's to today) this has made it easier to learn MY area as it isn't cost effective for fakers to peddle common player autos to make $8 so I have spent a lot of time looking at Aaron's Matthews, Spahn's Chipper...etc to the point where I feel I could spot a fake right away (with the lone exception of a recent Aaron as they are so messy I think you could fake one in person nearly and it could pass).

Like you said, I wouldn't ask me for my Mantle opinion, but for others who have seen hundreds+ of them, why shouldn't their opinion count? I know if there was a new guy popping in here with questions on some Braves stuff I would do my best to help, even if that help only amounts to "shrug, looks good to me"

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Shelly,
I agree.
As I said in one of my replies, I wrote my points for those silent members who only read and don't comment. I don't want his opinion to become a source of misinformation for those less experienced. The idea that autograph opinions are arbitrary and dubious, like his, do create a negative spin on auto collecting. Opinions in auto collecting are no different than any other subject in life. If you want to know about Black holes, opinions from Astrophysicists carry more weight than those of a Social Worker(no offense to social workers. just needed an example as far away from physics as possible). I try to educate correctly that autos, like all collectibles, do have risk, but can be made safer by study and careful consideration.

My opinion could never become a source of misinformation because it is accurate. Autograph authentication is nothing more than opinion and the only guarantee that anything is real is if you see the person sign it. Where is the misinformation?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

My opinion could never become a source of misinformation because it is accurate. Autograph authentication is nothing more than opinion and the only guarantee that anything is real is if you see the person sign it. Where is the misinformation?

The issue is that you don't seem to differentiate between the credibility of said "opinions."

The educated opinion of a credible expert is not the same as the opinion of a chat board participant who is basing their opinion on nothing more than a loose set of guidelines and little experience. The opinion of a credible expert, while not a guarantee, does provide a very high level of accuracy.

I don't get the derisive comments about autograph authentication being "only an opinion"... Like everything else in the world is purely scientifically based.

Guess what... The world runs on opinions. A lawyer is offering a legal opinion on how you should proceed. A doctor offers his or her opinion on the best course of treatment. A financial advisor provides you with advice based on his or her opinion. A public relations consultant's strategy is based on his or her opinion. A politician crafts an agenda based on opinion. The guy remodeling your home is going to use his opinion to determine best approach and materials. And on and on...

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by shelly

My question is why are you guys even answering him.You are writing full pages of arguments and he is laughing at you.

Of course. The best way to make your point is to stick your head in the sand at the first sign of differing opinion.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Thanks for the compliment, but honestly, I did not write it to change your mind. I wrote it for all those members who might be new or inexperienced with autos and are reading it. I want them to know that your assessment that people's opinions on autos are arbitrary and dubious is, in fact, incorrect.
We agree that using common sense like Steve suggested is worthwhile. You also seem to think that the "gut feeling" is more important than the study of letter formations, the study of the evolution of a specific player's autographs, and player habits. It is not. It is all important to consider when evaluating an auto. You focusing on the gut feeling alone shows your inexperience.
IMO, ignoring the opinion of someone who has more experience and knowledge than you is stupid. It's exactly what you would call someone who has cancer, goes to an oncologist, and then decides they are going to choose different chemo meds because they feel it's better in their "gut," rather than using the opinion of the person who actually knows what they are talking about. It may seem different, but it is not. Refusing to accept knowledge from others who have it is stupid regardless of the circumstances.

You are certainly allowed to have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. Plenty of people thought the world was flat. Perhaps sticking to offering opinions on football pennants might be better for you as it is what you collect and admittedly autos are not. Your continuing this conversation trying to prove your point, especially reusing the comment about using your eyes to view the auto over and over, reminds me of a famous quote often credited to Abe Lincoln... "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

To be clear...I have nothing against autographs or autograph collecting. It's not the focus of my collection, but I do have autographs in it that I cherish. None of my comments were intended to denigrate the hobby of autograph collecting. I was simply commenting on those that are so confident in their skills that they can give the thumbs up/thumbs down by only viewing an online photo...and offering nothing to back up their "expert" opinion.

I find it particularly amusing when an assessment thread has piggy backing and increasingly confident "bad" responses...only until someone of apparent higher respect and/or skill comes along to say "good"...at which point all the predecessors suddenly change their tune and say..."well...I was on the fence".

If some rely on that to appease their doubts, so be it. It's not for me.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

I was simply commenting on those that are so confident in their skills that they can give the thumbs up/thumbs down by only viewing an online photo...and offering nothing to back up their "expert" opinion.

Do you own a Mantle autograph item?

By the way, my method of opining autographs works for me. That's all that matters.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Do you own a Mantle autograph item?

By the way, my method of opining autographs works for me. That's all that matters.

i've owned and sold several over the past few years. Acquired as part of collections I've picked up. None were certified. All were sold as authentic with no complaints. And I had no doubt they were authentic. It would be highly unlikely they were fake given the quality of the collections and collectors I acquired them from. I'm not even close to being a Mantle expert, but his is one autograph I feel I do know better than most.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

To be clear...I have nothing against autographs or autograph collecting. It's not the focus of my collection, but I do have autographs in it that I cherish. None of my comments were intended to denigrate the hobby of autograph collecting. I was simply commenting on those that are so confident in their skills that they can give the thumbs up/thumbs down by only viewing an online photo...and offering nothing to back up their "expert" opinion.

I find it particularly amusing when an assessment thread has piggy backing and increasingly confident "bad" responses...only until someone of apparent higher respect and/or skill comes along to say "good"...at which point all the predecessors suddenly change their tune and say..."well...I was on the fence".

If some rely on that to appease their doubts, so be it. It's not for me.

Real world analogy:

Ten family physicians say you don't have cancer, then a world renowned oncologist says you do. Who do you trust? Maybe the family physicians might reconsider their original opinions in light of this?

I am generally most interested in Mantle rookie era signatures. I have a very good "feel" for them as I seek them out and pay attention to them when I see them. I am not nearly as interested in his show era signature, though I do admire it as a thing of beauty. Thus I haven't studied this version of his signature, though I do know a few things to look for. That said, there are some on this forum who have seen tens of thousands of examples of his show era signature...good examples and bad. These are the real experts on his show era signature and I will defer to them 100% of the time.

Not sure how else to put it. I don't understand why it would be in any way controversial to defer to the true experts in the field?

Tom C