Post national

[the-illini]

Kyle, this is very well said.

I have been a collector for 30 years, but the past two years I have set up as a dealer.

First of all, it is very expensive as you noted to set up at a national. Between the table cost and hotel rooms, the cost is approximately 2500 dollars to even have a spot. Also, 95% of dealers have a full-time job so they are taking the better part of a week off of work to set up. That is a choice we all make but there is an opportunity cost associated with being there as well - it ain't sipping cocktails on a beach.

Secondly, a lot of collectors coming to tables have very unrealistic expectations about what a card should sell for. For example, I had a card priced at $430 at my table. I had $350 in the card. A gentleman asked me what my best price on the card was - I told him $395. He looks at the card for another 5 minutes and asks me "Could you do $200?" People need to be fair on the buying side as well.

On the other side of that coin, a lot of dealers are just bad at their job, and it turns off customers. Having been a customer at Nationals for years, I know how irritating it is to go to a table and feel like you are bothering the dealer by even being there. My main goal as a dealer is to avoid that feeling for a customer. I ALWAYS try to welcome people, engage them, and help them with any questions they have about my items. If they leave without buying, I always still thank them for their time.

Also, it doesn't hurt to explain why your prices are high. For example, I had a fellow board member buy two cards from me on Friday. He quoted me a (very fair) initial offer for the cards. I countered and explained why I was asking so much on one of the cards (it was from my collection and the price was firm if I was going to sell it). He and I had a nice discussion about the card and he ended up buying it from me. Communication can go a long way.

Finally though, dealers are at the show to make some money. The dealers who are rude and price items at 3-4x market make it unpleasant for all of us, but I think people also need to understand the investment they make in committing to set up at a show. I know the last two years have been very eye-opening for me in that regard.

Originally Posted by KMayUSA6060

I don't understand why so many people bitch about prices at National.

#1 The reason there is a National is because dealers pay for booths to display their cards. They have to cover that cost somehow.

#2 If your target is high-end/in-demand cards, and you've been to National previously and have seen the high prices on such cards, why are you expecting anything different this year, or the next time you go?

#3 High-end, in-demand cards command an in-person premium because you can physically see, touch, and examine the card in person before purchasing. You can also take it home with you that day if you so choose to purchase it. They're also priced the way they are because someone will probably purchase it either at that price or negotiate to slightly lower.

#4 Enjoy what National is - a gathering of fellow collectors enjoying a hobby we all love.


Admittedly, I did not go this year, but I will be going next year when it's in my backyard in Cleveland. I did go last year, and was disappointed in the selection provided by dealers, but I still enjoy walking around and seeing all of the cool things and talking with the dealers. That's what it is supposed to be about.

[Snapolit1]

Many valid points. Unrealistic buyers. Unrealistic sellers. Lots of good honest people on both sides. Like anywhere else. And I agree that holding the card in your hand is a tremendous advantage of buying in person.

I had no problem at all with unfriendly or disinterested dealers. Most conversations were simply let me know if you are looking for anything specific, which is all that needs to be said. Some people didn't have their cards all priced which was annoying. But overall I thought the vibe in the room was very friendly.

[rainier2004]

I think Chris and Kyle summed things up pretty well from both sides.

There's a ton of overpriced stuff, just like everywhere else you go in life. Ive been collecting for 32 years, Id like to think I not a dumbass who overpays so to paint the entire National with one broad stroke seems a little is a little ignorant as I only buy pww1 cards. I found 5 cards that were added to my collection including one that involved a dealer and another collector that worked out well for all of us.

I have also become old enough to realize if my only goal of attending a National is to get cards then I am missing a big opportunity to enjoy time with friends, friends I only see once a year. There is a value to giving titty twisters and stealing someones toothpaste from their room. Cardboard is great, but friends are better.

[buymycards]

You also have to factor the "experience" of the National. For instance, I can play a round of golf at my local golf course for twenty bucks, but every once in a while a like to go to a different course, a nicer course, in a different city. That round of golf may cost me $100, but it is worth it to me because of the "experience" of a better course.

It is the same thing with the National. When I go to the National, I know there will be a lot of nice cards, dealers from across the country, and if I have to pay more for a card, then that it OK. I don't have to buy a card, but I usually do make some purchases. I could have gone to a local show, but the chances of finding a card that fits my collection is almost zero.

Between hotel, transportation, food, etc., my trip cost me $725, not counting the cost of the cards that I purchased. I could have stayed home and found some cards on eBay and added $725 worth of cards to my collection, but eBay is available every day, and the National only occurs once per year.

Sometimes you have to quit looking at your cards as a business or an investment, and just have some fun. If you find a card that fits your collection and you really want it, who cares if the card is priced over "book value" or SMR or VCP? Buy it and enjoy it, and if you decide to sell it in a few years, you may lose a few bucks, but that is OK.

Rick

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the-illini

Kyle, this is very well said.

I have been a collector for 30 years, but the past two years I have set up as a dealer.

First of all, it is very expensive as you noted to set up at a national. Between the table cost and hotel rooms, the cost is approximately 2500 dollars to even have a spot. Also, 95% of dealers have a full-time job so they are taking the better part of a week off of work to set up. That is a choice we all make but there is an opportunity cost associated with being there as well - it ain't sipping cocktails on a beach.

Secondly, a lot of collectors coming to tables have very unrealistic expectations about what a card should sell for. For example, I had a card priced at $430 at my table. I had $350 in the card. A gentleman asked me what my best price on the card was - I told him $395. He looks at the card for another 5 minutes and asks me "Could you do $200?" People need to be fair on the buying side as well.

On the other side of that coin, a lot of dealers are just bad at their job, and it turns off customers. Having been a customer at Nationals for years, I know how irritating it is to go to a table and feel like you are bothering the dealer by even being there. My main goal as a dealer is to avoid that feeling for a customer. I ALWAYS try to welcome people, engage them, and help them with any questions they have about my items. If they leave without buying, I always still thank them for their time.

Also, it doesn't hurt to explain why your prices are high. For example, I had a fellow board member buy two cards from me on Friday. He quoted me a (very fair) initial offer for the cards. I countered and explained why I was asking so much on one of the cards (it was from my collection and the price was firm if I was going to sell it). He and I had a nice discussion about the card and he ended up buying it from me. Communication can go a long way.

Finally though, dealers are at the show to make some money. The dealers who are rude and price items at 3-4x market make it unpleasant for all of us, but I think people also need to understand the investment they make in committing to set up at a show. I know the last two years have been very eye-opening for me in that regard.

There was a thread about the lack of good card stores and i think the same issues apply with the National. If people want to support the hobby, they will pay for dealer cards on a price that may be a bit more than on ebay. Except you have the experience of actually seeing the card and also the fun of seeing fellow hobbyists and all the other good things that come with people talking about sports and cards. A lot of the same people that whine about the lack of card stores or good shows are the same people that offer 200 on a 300 dollar card. Dealers and people spending money to organize shows didnt do that so buyers could buy cards there to flip on ebay for an easy profit.


If its only about the bottom dollar and not the fun of the hobby everything will eventually revert to the online forum. There is just too much logistical costs for everything else.

[Snapolit1]

The one thing that has probably changed dramatically from years ago is most of us can immediately call up VCP on our phones to see what a card w/ same grade has sold for in the recent past. When the last 4 sales are for $1000, its not smart to be trying to sell the card for $3750. But if someone's card is that overpriced they will be dragging it around for a while and will probably wise up eventually.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[the-illini]

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

[packs]

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

Agreed. It sounds nice but it's illogical.

[the-illini]

So you want dealers to pay market, set up at a card show, and sell at market?

That's a good business model.

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

I still don't understand the philosophy that if you buy a card in person at a show you should expect to pay more than market value. Why, exactly? Because a guy shelled out money to rent a table? He didn't do it for his health. Let him sell his cards to pay for his table. Or, as is usually the custom, out price any buyers and walk away without selling anything.

I feel the same way when I try to negotiate a deal anywhere. Some guy will always say, "well, i have X into it". I don't care what you have into it. What you paid for something isn't what dictates a sale price.

Right, we are basically supporting the hobby. Shows will just disappear all together if you are looking at ebay prices minus 10% (people find direct deals all the time on ebay so that 10% doesnt really mean 10%)

If you are fine with just buying online the rest of the way or going to auction houses than so be it. Just dont complain about the lack of good shows or cards stores

There are always extremes of the guys that want 3x market price. However there are a lot of cards that are 10% over ebay market price that no one will touch because they are over priced. We dont need to talk about the cards that are 3x teh price.....there are plenty, i mean plenty of cards a shade over ebay price that wont get bought by the people that say that cant find any good shows or card stores.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the-illini

I guess don't go to the National with the intent of buying cards then?

I see plenty of exorbitant prices on Ebay every day as well.

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

I heard more Henny Youngman......

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

Henny Youngman, actually. Rodney was "no respect".

Best sign I saw all week: "I don't care about eBay fees"

I do agree that some people can't be happy no matter what; reminds me of this joke: A woman is walking on the beach with her young son when a rogue wave takes the boy out to sea. She prays for his return and another rogue wave brings him back. She then looks up and says "he had a hat."

Part of the benefit of being able to buy at a show is being able to look at the card in hand, to negotiate over price, and to move on if you don't like what you see or what you are asked to pay. Get over your bad investor selves, people. If a card is really hard to find there is no 'market' and a seller is justified asking whatever he wants; if the card is readily found, move on to another table with it and let the dealer enjoy his card museum. I visited 'my' card at one table every year at the National for a decade. No one ever bought it because the price was so out of whack. It became sort of a running joke for me: go to the show and visit the card. I finally found one on eBay for a fraction of the cost. The dealer has stopped setting up.

[herbc]

Originally Posted by Leon

Some people will be pessimistic no matter what. If I offered everyone on the board 1 million dollars for free, some would be pissed they didn't get more. It's human nature to gripe, I guess. Just take my wife........please . (that was my worst Rodney Dangerfield, but there is more)

Mmmm.... Henny Youngman? No respect = Rodney. I'm just old.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are of course expenses in setting up at a card show, but at the same time a dealer doesn't have to give x percent to ebay/paypal when making an in person sale. So I am not seeing this as a justification for charging exorbitant prices. And in any event, reducing prices might lead to higher profits if you sell more cards.

To me it's an insane situation when guys like Steve and Jesse who are willing to pay strong prices for cards come home literally with nothing because the prices were so ridiculous.

To be fair I did see quite a few cards for sale at reasonable prices, they just weren't quite what I was looking for in terms of centering or grade. I almost bought a yellow 33 ruth at the last minute that was a fair price but was a little lower grade than I want. Some prices were high, but if I saw exactly what I wanted I think a deal could have been made.

Don Hontz in particular had several high quality cards at what I felt were fair prices.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

To be fair I did see quite a few cards for sale at reasonable prices, they just weren't quite what I was looking for in terms of centering or grade. I almost bought a yellow 33 ruth at the last minute that was a fair price but was a little lower grade than I want. Some prices were high, but if I saw exactly what I wanted I think a deal could have been made.

Don Hontz in particular had several high quality cards at what I felt were fair prices.

Fair enough. Almost nothing I "looked at" indirectly was what I would consider fairly priced though, with one exception. Not even close.

[packs]

I see the same guys with the same cards at the same tables every time I go to the White Plains show. They never sell anything.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair enough. Almost nothing I "looked at" indirectly was what I would consider fairly priced though, with one exception. Not even close.

High prices were definitely the norm. But I saw a couple Ryan RCs at one table for not much more than 3k in psa 8. A few red cobbs at reasonable prices. That yellow Ruth I mentioned was a psa 2.5 for 2800. About what I would expect to pay at auction. I saw plenty of deals being made, but unfortunately didn't make any my self. I am bidding on a few cards at auction that I got to see in person.

And I met quite a few people, some of which I had done business or chatted with online. Not a total loss. Plus I had a good time with my step dad and brother.

[Kevin Savage]

I have found this thread to make great reading. I am a dealer who has exhibited at the National every year since 1981- and it is always great to read the customers review of the show.

I exhibit at The National to do many things: 1) Buy 2) Sell 3) Re-engage existing customers 4) Make and meet new customers 5) Network with other dealers 6) Observe trends and learn what is happening in the macro of the hobby 7) Have some meals with old friends 8) Refocus my little company on the ultimate goal of serving our customers. 9) Have fun . (Not necessarily in that order!)

I think my company is able to accomplish most of these objectives at every National- but I think there is always room for improvement. I try to price my cards and memorabilia fairly- based on what I have had to pay for the stuff in today's market- and also what I feel is a price that will make a sale happen within a reasonable amount of time. I also try to buy at fair prices- without overpaying(though sometimes this happens)- with an eye to how the purchased items might be sold.

The ultimate success test - is if transactions happen. I believe this is true for buying and selling. I have a big sign in my office which says "YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A MUSEUM - KEEP THE INVENTORY MOVING".

One of the posts in this thread said something about many dealers not being very good at what they do..... and somedays that may be the case for me. But I, like most dealers I know, are trying to serve our customers fairly- and make a reasonable living at the same time. This can be a delicate balancing act. As collectors have hundreds of different ways to collect and enjoy the hobby- dealers have many different philosophies on how to run their businesses- with varying degrees of success and customer satisfaction.(As has been voiced in this thread).

I feel the beauty of the National is that it is big enough to allow most everybody to get out of it- what they want. To steal a couple song names from my favorite rock band "Dawes"- the National is "A Little Bit of Everything" and hopefully everyone can have fun "Somewhere Along the Way". I look forward to Cleveland in 2018.

[bbcard1]

At any show you have two types of dealers...there are guys like Wiliam Chappel and Dick Decoursey that actually are active dealers. They focus on profit but are nice and professional to deal with. There are also retired school teachers and postal workers who hold court over museums of their cardboard conquests without any particular need or ambition to sell.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Kevin Savage

I have found this thread to make great reading. I am a dealer who has exhibited at the National every year since 1981- and it is always great to read the customers review of the show.

I exhibit at The National to do many things: 1) Buy 2) Sell 3) Re-engage existing customers 4) Make and meet new customers 5) Network with other dealers 6) Observe trends and learn what is happening in the macro of the hobby 7) Have some meals with old friends 8) Refocus my little company on the ultimate goal of serving our customers. 9) Have fun . (Not necessarily in that order!)

I think my company is able to accomplish most of these objectives at every National- but I think there is always room for improvement. I try to price my cards and memorabilia fairly- based on what I have had to pay for the stuff in today's market- and also what I feel is a price that will make a sale happen within a reasonable amount of time. I also try to buy at fair prices- without overpaying(though sometimes this happens)- with an eye to how the purchased items might be sold.

The ultimate success test - is if transactions happen. I believe this is true for buying and selling. I have a big sign in my office which says "YOU ARE NOT RUNNING A MUSEUM - KEEP THE INVENTORY MOVING".

One of the posts in this thread said something about many dealers not being very good at what they do..... and somedays that may be the case for me. But I, like most dealers I know, are trying to serve our customers fairly- and make a reasonable living at the same time. This can be a delicate balancing act. As collectors have hundreds of different ways to collect and enjoy the hobby- dealers have many different philosophies on how to run their businesses- with varying degrees of success and customer satisfaction.(As has been voiced in this thread).

I feel the beauty of the National is that it is big enough to allow most everybody to get out of it- what they want. To steal a couple song names from my favorite rock band "Dawes"- the National is "A Little Bit of Everything" and hopefully everyone can have fun "Somewhere Along the Way". I look forward to Cleveland in 2018.

Anyone who says the regret going I don't get. All the activity, all the cards, all the wisdom in the room, all the history of the game . . .really pretty intoxicating. I was a little exhausted running around and not having enough time and was cranky at the end but I will definitely come back. We can all fight on prices, but the one thing I would say to dealers is please have your stuff priced. When things aren't marked at all I just assume you are trying to rip people off based on their appearance and sizing them up.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

The one thing that has probably changed dramatically from years ago is most of us can immediately call up VCP on our phones to see what a card w/ same grade has sold for in the recent past. When the last 4 sales are for $1000, its not smart to be trying to sell the card for $3750. But if someone's card is that overpriced they will be dragging it around for a while and will probably wise up eventually.

It as equally unwise and annoying for a buyer to make a lowball offer of $500-600 for the same reason.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by basesareempty

It as equally unwise and annoying for a buyer to make a lowball offer of $500-600 for the same reason.

More than likely, the buyer will offer the $1,000 that the last 4 were sold at and be met with scorn and ridicule.....and curtly answered back "$3,000 is as low as I can go"....not saying lowball offers don't happen....but at the National?? My scenario is more likely the case.