T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

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350/460 series subjects


In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs.
These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to
Factory #42 (Durham, NC).





It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked
David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list......

28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards

Berger, Heinie
Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
Burch, Al (Fielding)
Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
Jordan, Tim (Batting)
Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
Manning, Rube (Pitching)
McQuillan, George (With Bat)
Mullin, George (With Bat)
Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
Pelty, Barney (Vertical)
Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
White, Doc (Pitching)

Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series).


Group B (350/460 series)




TED Z
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[Pat R]

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.

Patrick

[tedzan]

Hi Pat

You may be right.

But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me.

So, I'll call him about this.


TED Z
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[Sean]

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


scan0009.jpg

scan0010.jpg

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey Ted, sorry to go off-topic, but I have a timeline question about T214s and T213s. I noticed that the Bresnahan appears as a T213 Type-2 with the Chicago Cubs. He appears as well with the Toledo team, presumably in a later print run of Type-2 Coupons. I've always read that these were printed in 1914. But the T214 Bresnahan, printed in 1915 still lists him with Chicago. Then in 1919 the Coupon Type-3s also show Bresnahan with Toledo.

Does this mean that there was a second print run of Type-2s that was later than the 1915 printing of T214s? You've probably addressed this somewhere before, but I can't find it. Here are the cards that I mentioned:


Attachment 282499

Attachment 282500

Hi Sean

Here's my understanding of the timeline regarding Bresnahan.

In early 1916, Bresnahan purchased the Toledo Mud Hens (American Association). He played for Toledo until 1918.

Therefore, I am not surprised that he is identified with Toledo on a T213-2 card (they were printed 1914 - 1916).
And, of course captioned with Toledo on a T213-3 card (which were printed as late as 1919).

Does this answer help ?


TED Z
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[Sean]

Yes, that explains it. Bresnahan appears on a T213 Type-2 with Chicago in 1914. He then appears on the Victory, again with Chicago, printed in 1915.

The Type-2 with Bresnahan on Toledo is then printed, apparently in 1916, followed by the Type-3, which was printed in 1919.

I didn't realize that the Type-2s were printed as late as 1916. Thanks again Ted.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards.


Patrick

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
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[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Pat

David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie).

Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source.


TED Z
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Hi Ted,

PSA has a special section in their pop reports for no prints that include the SC350-460/30's. I sent David an email several months ago about three that were missing from the list
which are Conroy (With Bat), Lake (No Ball) and Leach (Bending Over) but I never heard back from him. The next time you speak to him can you ask him to have them update this
list for accuracy to include these three and the Lajoie that he has.

https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/?by...f=0#NoPrintPop


img340 - Copy.jpg
Conroy (bat) Group.jpgConroy (bat) Back Group.jpg
Lake (no ball) Group_.jpgLake (no ball) Back Group_.jpg
Leach [1].jpgLeach Back [1].jpg

[Ronnie73]

Here is a front/back scan of the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print". I personally own this card along with the other 27 "No Print" cards. This 28 card "No Print" set follows Ted's "Group B" list exactly!!!

[Charger74]

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Charger74

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......



Group A

.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B




All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.


This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......


.



Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.



TED Z
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[tedzan]

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Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
.




Checklist…...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
.




Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

.


.


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My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

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Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
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[Sean]

Ted, here's a quote from Heitman:

Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards. However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct red rather than brown back printing have been found. All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series. Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Hindu red printed backs."

So Heitman was aware of them, but had only the most basic information about them. I'll try to post a scan of my only RH in a couple days.

[tedzan]

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

.




Hi Sean

I mixed up my information. Frank Nagy, who was one of the first collectors to publish a checklist the T206 set in the Sport Hobbyist,
made no mention of the red HINDU back.

Bill Heitman told me that only half a dozen red HINDU cards were known back in the 1970's.

Sorry, about the mix-up.

Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
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[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

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Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
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As a matter of fact, I find it very surprising. I can understand why a Piedmont Fact 42 or Doyle variation could go unnoticed, but the Hindu Red should stand out from the Hindu Browns. And while rare, there were still plenty of them around, especially the exclusive twelve , which are easy to find with a RH back.

Cobb backs were incredibly rare, and even the MAGIE is relatively rare and easy to miss, yet they were known. How could no one ever see a Red Hindu and say Hey, this back is different?