Aaron Judge

Peter_Spaeth · #1 09-25-2017, 09:31 PM

I think he finishes second behind Altuve in MVP. Very impressive how he turned it around after an epic slump, and indeed how he ascended after a long and unspectacular minor league career. A great story.

1952boyntoncollector · #2 09-26-2017, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he finishes second behind Altuve in MVP. Very impressive how he turned it around after an epic slump, and indeed how he ascended after a long and unspectacular minor league career. A great story.

Give it about a year, and noone will remember any 'epic' slump. Its not a slump if you end up with 50 homers ...its just called a normal baseball season.

Im sure there are lots of .285 35 homer and 100+ rbi seaons of players were had horrible slumps in that year. Noone will remember that. 50 homers in not a full season...c'mon.

rats60 · #3 09-26-2017, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Give it about a year, and noone will remember any 'epic' slump. Its not a slump if you end up with 50 homers ...its just called a normal baseball season.

Im sure there are lots of .285 35 homer and 100+ rbi seaons of players were had horrible slumps in that year. Noone will remember that. 50 homers in not a full season...c'mon.

This is not true. In 1995 Albert Belle hit 50 Hrs in 143 games .317/.401/.690 leading the league in runs, doubles, HRs, RBIs, slugging and total bases, but lost the MVP to Mo Vaughn who had much worse stats. WAR Belle 6.9 to Vaughn 4.3. OPS+ Belle 177 to Vaughn 144.

The problem was that Belle went on a tear the last two months of the season, hitting 31 of his 50 Hrs. At the end of July the Indians were in first place by 17 games. Vaughn had great clutch stats and tied Belle in RBIs. Belle was the better player and had the better season, but he did his damage when it didn't matter. Vaughn was more valuable. People will remember, especially if Judge does not win MVP.

1952boyntoncollector · #4 09-26-2017, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

This is not true. In 1995 Albert Belle hit 50 Hrs in 143 games .317/.401/.690 leading the league in runs, doubles, HRs, RBIs, slugging and total bases, but lost the MVP to Mo Vaughn who had much worse stats. WAR Belle 6.9 to Vaughn 4.3. OPS+ Belle 177 to Vaughn 144.

The problem was that Belle went on a tear the last two months of the season, hitting 31 of his 50 Hrs. At the end of July the Indians were in first place by 17 games. Vaughn had great clutch stats and tied Belle in RBIs. Belle was the better player and had the better season, but he did his damage when it didn't matter. Vaughn was more valuable. People will remember, especially if Judge does not win MVP.

I was not giving an opinion about MVP....i was saying that years from now when you look at stats you arent going to remember or think Judge had an 'epic' slump when you see his statistics. Basically its not an epic slump when you end up with those stats. An epic slump is like Fernando Rodney last year or Jack Armstrong years ago ....guys whos season total season was considered bad even though the first half was at an all star level.....the entire season for Judge was outstanding. It just cant be an epic slump if your season ends up elite

MattyC · #5 09-26-2017, 10:50 AM

One has to love how the steady, calm, poised Aaron Judge let his play shift the public discussion. Earlier in the season, there were those trying to knock him, calling him Kevin Maas or Jeremy Lin. Now the debate has shifted to whether or not he is the MVP� as a rookie. It's worth hanging a lantern on what that sheer pivot says about the fine year this young man has put together.

Baseball is one heck of a hard game. Playing in the midst of the Category 5 media maelstrom that Judge has makes his carriage and performance all the more impressive to me.

I'm hard pressed to remember another instance when a veteran said it's an honor to play with a rookie; that says a great deal. �He went through it and just kept working,�� Todd Frazier said on Monday. �That�s very hard to come back from, but that�s his mentality, his personality. It�s incredible, hitting 50, and for him to be as humble as he is, it�s an honor to play with him.�

rats60 · #6 09-26-2017, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think he finishes second behind Altuve in MVP. Very impressive how he turned it around after an epic slump, and indeed how he ascended after a long and unspectacular minor league career. A great story.

I would put him behind Altuve and Ramirez, two great seasons on the two teams fighting for the best record. I can't get over Judge's two month slump. The Yankees had a better record during that slump than the rest of the season. That doesn't say most valuable to me.

packs · #7 09-26-2017, 09:30 AM

Altuve is having a great year but I'm not sure he's the most valuable player. The Astros are loaded and while he's having the best year among them, the team is stacked.

I feel the same way about Ramirez. Is he having that much better of a year than Lindor that he would be top 3 and Lindor wouldn't?

But on the Yankees it was all Judge for the entire first half of the season. I don't believe they would have clinched a wild card spot without Judge. They had a better winning percentage in the second half but scored 120 less runs while Judge slumped. That to me shows how important his performance is to the team.

bn2cardz · #8 09-26-2017, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

They had a better winning percentage in the second half but scored 120 less runs while Judge slumped.

That right there is why he isn't the MVP. He let his team down in the second half. Had he played well in the second half would the Yankees have to settle for a wild card playoff game (I know it isn't set in stone yet, but they are 4 games back still)?

Altuve was consistent for his team all year long.

Altuve 1st half: .347ba/.417obp/.551slg/.968ops
Alutve 2nd half: .349ba/.409obp/.559slg/.968ops

Judge 1st half: .329ba/.448obp/.691slg/1.139ops
Judge 2nd half: .221ba/.379obp/.527slg/.906ops

First half Judge was the MVP for the Yankees, but the second half he was a detriment to the team just coming back for the final month.

packs · #9 09-26-2017, 10:00 AM

I feel like its a chicken or the egg situation. Had Judge not played so well in the first half the Yankees might not have had a second half to play for. But even in his slump it was only really a slump for him. I mean the average is unsightly but the OPS and slugging, during his worst moments of the season, nearly match Altuve's peak.

bn2cardz · #10 09-26-2017, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

But even in his slump it was only really a slump for him. I mean the average is unsightly but the OPS and slugging, during his worst moments of the season, nearly match Altuve's peak.

You are manipulating what is said to try and fit it to your desire. What I was showing was the consistency of the player over the full season. That was Judge's full second half, not just his slump. Judge's slump in August do not "nearly match Altuve's peak" in July.

Altuve's peak month, July: .485ba/.523obp/.727slg/1.251ops/203sOPS
Judge's slump month, August: .185ba/.353obp/.326slg/.680ops/83sOPS

August was even Altuve's worst month and even just comparing those Judge doesn't "nearly match" Alutve:
August .304ba/.345obp/.520slg/.865ops/126sOPS

Now this isn't to say I don't think Judge is worthy of other accolades that he will receive for the season. It also doesn't mean that when Judge is on he is better than Altuve, he is. This just shows me that Judge is very streaky and to me wouldn't be the MVP.

packs · #11 09-26-2017, 11:42 AM

I was talking about the numbers that you posted. The OPS, slugging, and OBP were near enough to each other that without looking at batting average it would be hard to tell one was struggling.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 09-26-2017, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

That right there is why he isn't the MVP. He let his team down in the second half. Had he played well in the second half would the Yankees have to settle for a wild card playoff game (I know it isn't set in stone yet, but they are 4 games back still)?

Altuve was consistent for his team all year long.

Altuve 1st half: .347ba/.417obp/.551slg/.968ops
Alutve 2nd half: .349ba/.409obp/.559slg/.968ops

Judge 1st half: .329ba/.448obp/.691slg/1.139ops
Judge 2nd half: .221ba/.379obp/.527slg/.906ops

First half Judge was the MVP for the Yankees, but the second half he was a detriment to the team just coming back for the final month.

To whoever has been arguing Judge just had a typical season with ups and downs: not.

1952boyntoncollector · #13 09-26-2017, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To whoever has been arguing Judge just had a typical season with ups and downs: not.

Nah...it becomes sample size. as long as you hit well enough for the 2nd half.. a month might as well be 3 days of slumping. Talk of any slump in 2017 for Judge is silly. Its like saying he went 0-4 yesterday so thats a slump... One good day of hitting negates many many bad days. If you fail 7 out of 10 times you are going to the HOF if career is long enough.

Also the fact that your best month of the 2nd half is the last month during the playoff race makes that month more important than any other 2nd half months. Yeah all the games count, but if you use that argument than all of his stats count too

rats60 · #14 09-26-2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Nah...it becomes sample size. as long as you hit well enough for the 2nd half.. a month might as well be 3 days of slumping. Talk of any slump in 2017 for Judge is silly. Its like saying he went 0-4 yesterday so thats a slump... One good day of hitting negates many many bad days. If you fail 7 out of 10 times you are going to the HOF if career is long enough.

Also the fact that your best month of the 2nd half is the last month during the playoff race makes that month more important than any other 2nd half months. Yeah all the games count, but if you use that argument than all of his stats count too

It is not sample size when the two months after the end of the first half you hit .182/.346/.365. Judge has had a hot 2 weeks after a bad 2 months. Those 2 weeks are not important considering the Yankees already had the wild card wrapped up. It would be one thing if he led them to the division. However, his hot streak has come too late for it to matter.

rats60 · #15 09-26-2017, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Altuve is having a great year but I'm not sure he's the most valuable player. The Astros are loaded and while he's having the best year among them, the team is stacked.

I feel the same way about Ramirez. Is he having that much better of a year than Lindor that he would be top 3 and Lindor wouldn't?

But on the Yankees it was all Judge for the entire first half of the season. I don't believe they would have clinched a wild card spot without Judge. They had a better winning percentage in the second half but scored 120 less runs while Judge slumped. That to me shows how important his performance is to the team.

Ramirez has a WAR of 6.5 to 5.3 for Lindor. OPS+ 143 to 118. Ramirez is having a huge September .431/.467/1.000 at a time when Indians have gone 29-2 and went from hoping to make the playoffs to best record in the league. He is the true MVP despite not having the WAR of Altuve or OPS+ of Judge or Trout.

On the other hand Judge was small when the Yankees were cementing themselves in the first wild card. I disagree with you, I don't think the Yankees are 10 games worse without Judge. I think they are a wild card with or without him.

packs · #16 09-26-2017, 10:08 AM

I think some of that disparity between Ramirez and Lindor comes down to Lindor's poor first half though. He's hitting 50 points higher in the second half and slugging over 100 points higher. He had a lot of ground to make up to get where he is.

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