Scarcity ratio of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG BACKS FOR ELITE 11

[Thromdog]

They do typically sell for a premium over other EPDGs but the scarcity question versus other EPDGs is questionable. I personally think the Piedmont 350's are much tougher to find and their pricing reflects it.

However, the EPDG versions definitely get a premium.

I think the scarcity of elite 11 EPDGs might be answered better from this thread below. Logically if the EPDGs were printed before the Piedmont 350's then there would be a somewhat consistent amount of elite 11 EPDGs as other 150/350 or 350 only cards that are available with EPDG backs.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=231030

[tedzan]

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

Ted,

When you have time can you explain the reason that you think the 150/350
EPDG's were definitely printed simultaneously with the Piedmont 350's
and not before.

I'm kind of on the fence with my opinion but I lean more towards them
being printed before. They do have characteristics of both the 150 and 350
series.

The Frank Owen example supports them possibly being printed before but
the explanation for that could be a matter of that particular plate being used
for the EPDG's and not the PD350's. However there are around a dozen 150/350
subjects with front flaws on 150 series backs that I follow closely.
All of them are found on more than 1 back and together they cover all the
backs that the 150 series was printed on including Hindu. EPDG is the only back
that was used for the 350 series that I've found one of these flaws on.
I haven't found any of these on a PD350 or any other back used for the 350 series.

I can't say that the 150/350 EPDG's were definitely printed before the PD350's but until
I find one of the flaws on another 350 series back or I see more evidence
that they were printed simultaneously with the PD350's I will lean towards
these EPDG's being printed before the PD350's.

[Luke]

I'd love to see that as well. I assume EPDGs were printed before Piedmont 350s just based on the fact that most of these "Elite 11" guys seem to have been printed for the entire run, while they were clearly pulled early from Piedmont 350 production. Seems logical based on that to assume that the EPDG run finished before or about the same time that the Piedmont 350 run began production. But it there are facts to prove otherwise, I'm very interested to know about them.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

We have established (circa 2007) that the initial EPDG press runs were simultaneous with the initial press runs of the PIEDMONT 350 backs of the 150/350 series cards.

And, NOT prior to the initial PIEDMONT 350 press runs of the 150/350 series cards.

I could elaborate more on this, but I have to run out for now.


TED Z
.

Ted, could you please reveal what led to the conclusion that the printing of
the 150/350 EPDG's couldn't have started before the printing of the PD350's.
I have read some of the EPDG threads from 2006-07 and I didn't find any
definitive proof that they couldn't have been.

[steve B]

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

This is how I see it as well. It would be surprising to me if Ted really does have that proof, but if so I want to see it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

Just taking a quick look at a couple cards, and neither works as proof of earlier production. Conroy fielding has a 150/350 divide, but isn't known with EPDG. It looks like some of the 649OPs are known with EPDG, Powers would prove EPDG printing before the 350 series, but that's also not a card that's confirmed.

I'll have a better look and see what I can figure out. A card like the Conroy where there's a clear 150 and 350 that exists with EPDG for the 150 version would mostly prove production before most 350's

The work you've done with the scratches has already proven a lot of stuff that wasn't at all easy to prove any other way.

I think mapping less obvious differences along with matching fronts to backs will show us some more interesting stuff. It already proved useful with a couple fake Magies.

Steve B

[Luke]

Steve, can you explain what is different about a Conroy with a 150 back and a Conroy with a 350 back? I've tried looking at mine when I was doing a back run, and the only differences I could see was the 350 Series cards look more "washed out" which is pretty common.