Scarcity ratio of PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG BACKS FOR ELITE 11

[steve B]

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think that the numbers involved would heavily favor simultaneous production, at least in part of not entirely.

I really dislike the 150/350 combined print group. There's so much indication that there's what should be a clear divide between the 150's and 350's.

But as it goes with T206, there are always exceptions.
I believe this group was from sheets that were 150 sheets destined to be for EPDG. When the print job for EP was done, there would have been leftover sheets with no back printing. I believe those sheets were eventually run with P350 backs to save time and materials. That's not an uncommon thing. They'd have printed some extra fronts, to cover themselves against the eventual ones that were ruined in production. If production went well, and the EPGD back printing went well there could have been a decent stack of leftovers. Since the Piedmont orders would have been huge they'd have had Piedmonts running almost constantly. After the change to P350, any EPDG order would be a new order and probably set up for 350's since the 150 front stones were probably resurfaced to make 350 fronts. If there were enough leftovers and enough time between EPDG orders the sensible thing would have been to print P350 backs on them to use them up.

The fun question is this-
Given that the plate was probably more than 11 players, at least 12, maybe 17, maybe more, what other players were on this sheet?
They'd be players that were in EPDG for the 150 series but got carried over to 350. If the differences between 150s and 350's get sorted we'll probably find 1 or 6 or 13 or 23 more cards that are what should be 150 fronts but have 350 backs and that are just as tough as these 11.

Steve B

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

This is how I see it as well. It would be surprising to me if Ted really does have that proof, but if so I want to see it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Hi Steve,

I can't think of a way that it could be proven whether some of the 150/350 EPDG's
were printed before the PD350's but Ted is saying they have established
that they were not printed before the PD350's and I'm curious what
led them to conclude this.

I do believe that at some point they were printed simultaneously but based on
the numbers and some print flaws I think the printing of the EPDG's started
before the PD350's and ended around the same time for the 150/350 subjects
but that just my opinion.

I'm not sure if it matters because we do know that the sheet layouts changed but
I have Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer on one plate scratch sheet
together and Shaw and Ganley are on a different sheet while Dahlen is on a third sheet.
I haven't found any scratches on Ewing, Jones, Lundgren, or Spencer. Schulte
is also on the same plate scratch sheet as Dahlen.

Just taking a quick look at a couple cards, and neither works as proof of earlier production. Conroy fielding has a 150/350 divide, but isn't known with EPDG. It looks like some of the 649OPs are known with EPDG, Powers would prove EPDG printing before the 350 series, but that's also not a card that's confirmed.

I'll have a better look and see what I can figure out. A card like the Conroy where there's a clear 150 and 350 that exists with EPDG for the 150 version would mostly prove production before most 350's

The work you've done with the scratches has already proven a lot of stuff that wasn't at all easy to prove any other way.

I think mapping less obvious differences along with matching fronts to backs will show us some more interesting stuff. It already proved useful with a couple fake Magies.

Steve B

[Luke]

Steve, can you explain what is different about a Conroy with a 150 back and a Conroy with a 350 back? I've tried looking at mine when I was doing a back run, and the only differences I could see was the 350 Series cards look more "washed out" which is pretty common.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Luke

Steve, can you explain what is different about a Conroy with a 150 back and a Conroy with a 350 back? I've tried looking at mine when I was doing a back run, and the only differences I could see was the 350 Series cards look more "washed out" which is pretty common.

Conroy fielding has either got stripes for the seams on the hat or not.

Scot Reader asked about it a few? couple? years ago, and the backs pretty much came down as 150 for one and 350 for the other. There was one supposed outlier, but looking at the scan on Ebay I didn't think it was.

Steve B

[Luke]

Ok, that's why mine didn't look any different. Both my Old Mill and SC 350/25 have stripes, although they are lighter. Both cards have the "washed out" or "faded" look to them. Maybe you guys just saw some washed out copies and the stripes weren't noticeable? Or maybe the stripes are more prominent on with some backs than others.

Can't get my Old Mill to upload for some reason, but here is the SC 350/25:

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ok, that's why mine didn't look any different. Both my Old Mill and SC 350/25 have stripes, although they are lighter. Both cards have the "washed out" or "faded" look to them. Maybe you guys just saw some washed out copies and the stripes weren't noticeable? Or maybe the stripes are more prominent on with some backs than others.

Can't get my Old Mill to upload for some reason, but here is the SC 350/25:

Interesting, we'll have to revisit those in more detail.

The lines are very clear on 150's.

I just checked mine, and it's also an SC 350/25 and has no lines. Even under 40X there's no trace of them.
In looking at cards on Ebay, there was one decent scan of a 150 with them, and it didn't seem to have any gray shading on the cap, which mine has.

I'll get a pic of the area, and put it up.

On the plus side, we may learn a bit about the progression, Stronger lines, lighter, maybe from plate wear, then no lines. The gray/no gray would be a change too. And some subset of those cards I think will prove to be a lot less common.
On the down side, this probably eliminates the one clear same subject cutoff between 150 and 350, which complicates things.
Ah well, the monster continues to surprise and confound even where you think you've cornered it.

Steve B