Morris & Trammell Elected to HOF

OldOriole · #1 12-10-2017, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Tommy John, Jim Kaat and Mike Mussina should be getting in soon. I don't see how you can elect Morris and not those 3.

I'm certainly not a big fan of today's vote, especially for Morris. You're absolutely right, it opens up the door for those who would argue for enshrinement of players who only deserve to be in the Hall of Very Good (although, I do like Mussina - highest WAR of any eligible player not in the HOF).

I was just pointing out that I didn't think Wins were a great stat to use when judging (for a variety of reasons) and if you're gonna use it, at least check the total

OldOriole · #2 12-10-2017, 08:49 PM

I should also point out that the BBWAA takes a beating for the Hall of Fame being watered down, and there are some great examples for this. However, the Veteran's Committee (in it's various forms) has voted in many more players than the writers have. The BBWAA has elected 124 candidates, while the various Committees have elected 195 (including the two today).

Maybe the new format for the Committees will help, who knows. But as a vintage card collector, it bothers me that the Committee dealing with players from the pre-WWII era only meets once a decade while the Committee that met today will meet again in two years and, apparently, twice every five years.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 12-10-2017, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldOriole

I'm certainly not a big fan of today's vote, especially for Morris. You're absolutely right, it opens up the door for those who would argue for enshrinement of players who only deserve to be in the Hall of Very Good (although, I do like Mussina - highest WAR of any eligible player not in the HOF).

I was just pointing out that I didn't think Wins were a great stat to use when judging (for a variety of reasons) and if you're gonna use it, at least check the total

Higher than Barry Bonds and Clemens????

timn1 · #4 12-11-2017, 10:50 AM

Steve Garvey? Are you kiddin', man?

calvindog · #5 12-11-2017, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timn1

Steve Garvey? Are you kiddin', man?

Trammel was an all-star six times, never more than twice in a row and finished in the top six for MVP once.

Garvey was an all-star eight years in a row (and was an AS ten times); and finished in the top six for MVP five times (winning it once).

They each won four Gold Gloves.

Garvey was just the more dominant player of his era.

btcarfagno · #6 12-11-2017, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Trammel was an all-star six times, never more than twice in a row and finished in the top six for MVP once.

Garvey was an all-star eight years in a row (and was an AS ten times); and finished in the top six for MVP five times (winning it once).

They each won four Gold Gloves.

Garvey was just the more dominant player of his era.

Trammel deserved to be in 7 all star games. Garvey deserved to be in 7 all star games. Garvey won four gold gloves AT FIRST BASE. Only two of which he actually (may have) deserved. The other two were total bullshit. Trammel won four AS A SHORTSTOP one of which was bullshit but he should have won another which he did not. Garvey's MVP was bullshit as well. Trammel deserved four top five MVP finishes. Garvey deserved none of his. In fact, the year Garvey won his MVP, he wasn't the best offensive player ON HIS OWN TEAM (Jimmy Wynn...who also happened to play the far more demanding defensive position of center field as well). In fact, Steve Garvey NEVER had any single year where he was the best hitter on his own team.

the 'stache · #7 12-15-2017, 03:21 AM

Well, All Star voting should be something for later in the discussion about determining a player's Hall worthiness, not a baseline for their election. Lots of good players get excluded because they play for teams with smaller voting bases. Likewise, many players get voted in when they don't deserve it based on their reputation and past performance. Robin Yount was only an All Star three times. We're talking about arguably one of the five best shortstops to ever play the game. If he doesn't blow out his shoulder in 1984, there's no argument to even be made that he's not top five. I watched him in his prime, in person, and the guy was a spectacular. Between 1980 and 1984, he was worth 32.0 oWAR, and 7.6 dWAR, and that's with 53 games not played in 1981 because of the player strike. He didn't even get voted to the game in 1989 when he was the American League MVP for the second time--as a center fielder.

I think Trammel deserves it. Absolutely. And, I think Lou Whitaker deserved it long before Jack Morris. I'm sorry, dominant pitcher of his era? A near 4.00 career ERA in an era when scoring was down doesn't cut it for me.

Ted Simmons deserves to be in the Hall. He's a second-tier Hall catcher, in my opinion. My thoughts on his worthiness are summarized here

Dale Murphy? Great player, and in his prime he was one of the elites of the game. I think his later career kills his Hall chances. After 1987, his age 31 year, his career tanked. Still, back-to-back MVP Awards, five Gold Gloves (metrics show these can be debated, however), and four Silver Sluggers warrant consideration. Had a pretty good 1980 season (33 HR, 135 OPS +), and then after a down 1981, Murphy went on a tear. '82-'87, he had a 145 OPS +, scored 660 runs, hit 218 home runs, drove in 629 runs, stole 105 bases, and walked 542 times. Compare that to Mike Schmidt's production at the same time. 216 home runs, and a 152 OPS +.

A 46.2 career WAR is going to hurt Murphy. But how accurate are his defensive metrics? As has been referenced above, I'm finding some inconsistencies in historical dWAR metrics. You're going to tell me that Roberto Clemente in right field was only worth 12.1 dWAR for his eighteen year career, one with twelve Gold Gloves? I think not.

Interesting discussion, guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Trammel was an all-star six times, never more than twice in a row and finished in the top six for MVP once.

Garvey was an all-star eight years in a row (and was an AS ten times); and finished in the top six for MVP five times (winning it once).

They each won four Gold Gloves.

Garvey was just the more dominant player of his era.

ejharrington · #8 12-15-2017, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Well, All Star voting should be something for later in the discussion about determining a player's Hall worthiness, not a baseline for their election. Lots of good players get excluded because they play for teams with smaller voting bases. Likewise, many players get voted in when they don't deserve it based on their reputation and past performance. Robin Yount was only an All Star three times. We're talking about arguably one of the five best shortstops to ever play the game. If he doesn't blow out his shoulder in 1984, there's no argument to even be made that he's not top five. I watched him in his prime, in person, and the guy was a spectacular. Between 1980 and 1984, he was worth 32.0 oWAR, and 7.6 dWAR, and that's with 53 games not played in 1981 because of the player strike. He didn't even get voted to the game in 1989 when he was the American League MVP for the second time--as a center fielder.

I think Trammel deserves it. Absolutely. And, I think Lou Whitaker deserved it long before Jack Morris. I'm sorry, dominant pitcher of his era? A near 4.00 career ERA in an era when scoring was down doesn't cut it for me.

Ted Simmons deserves to be in the Hall. He's a second-tier Hall catcher, in my opinion. My thoughts on his worthiness are summarized here

Dale Murphy? Great player, and in his prime he was one of the elites of the game. I think his later career kills his Hall chances. After 1987, his age 31 year, his career tanked. Still, back-to-back MVP Awards, five Gold Gloves (metrics show these can be debated, however), and four Silver Sluggers warrant consideration. Had a pretty good 1980 season (33 HR, 135 OPS +), and then after a down 1981, Murphy went on a tear. '82-'87, he had a 145 OPS +, scored 660 runs, hit 218 home runs, drove in 629 runs, stole 105 bases, and walked 542 times. Compare that to Mike Schmidt's production at the same time. 216 home runs, and a 152 OPS +.

A 46.2 career WAR is going to hurt Murphy. But how accurate are his defensive metrics? As has been referenced above, I'm finding some inconsistencies in historical dWAR metrics. You're going to tell me that Roberto Clemente in right field was only worth 12.1 dWAR for his eighteen year career, one with twelve Gold Gloves? I think not.

Interesting discussion, guys.

Speaking of defensive WAR, Keith Hernandez had a 0.6 lifetime defensive WAR! Therefore, since I watched him for most of the 1980's and know how he impacted games with his defense, I can definitely conclude that defensive WAR is a VERY inaccurate measurement. Anyone who is considering revising their opinion of a player's value based on dWAR should proceed with caution.

packs · #9 12-15-2017, 03:03 PM

I made the same point about Mattingly in another thread. He has 9 gold gloves, was universally thought of as an elite defender, and he has a negative dWAR for his career.

rats60 · #10 12-15-2017, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Speaking of defensive WAR, Keith Hernandez had a 0.6 lifetime defensive WAR! Therefore, since I watched him for most of the 1980's and know how he impacted games with his defense, I can definitely conclude that defensive WAR is a VERY inaccurate measurement. Anyone who is considering revising their opinion of a player's value based on dWAR should proceed with caution.

The problem is that they adjust for position. Also, for current players it is calculated differently than for older players. So, when you compare Hernandez to other first basemen from his time frame, it holds up better. You can't compare him to a shortstop like Alan Trammell.

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