"RESTORED" Wagner - how should we feel about this as collectors?

[tothrk]

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

[mrvster]

+1
I can't agree more.....I'm just like you.....

if we accept this as collectors, its hard to draw the line.....

almost like "manufacturing rarity".........if you want that, buy new cards


vintage cards should not be tampered with by altering, once that is done, the card has no more integrity than the seller

[mrvster]

the flip should read

"FRANKEN - WAGNER"

[pokerplyr80]

I wouldn't buy one personally but as everything they did in the restoration is documented and there was no attempt to deceive collectors I have no problem with this.

[darwinbulldog]

How this hasn't yet led to a spin-off "I like my Wagners like my women" thread is quite beyond me.

[alywa]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

How this hasn't yet led to a spin-off "I like my Wagners like my women" thread is quite beyond me.

Authentic and a little rough around the edges?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

That's an excellent question!


Magies can probably be identified by particular flaws on the front/back. I haven't done much with the scans I've saved off lately, but there were specific things that I was seeing only on Magies


So that's a bigger question. How far to go in restoring?

[22eckstein]

As a t206 collector myself I actually prefer when cards do not look "pristine" I love the way that wagner looked originally, Would never buy that after it was restored.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by tothrk

I'm a purist when it comes to my personal collection. I want my cards to be authentic and unaltered. That being said, it's a free country and others can collect/spend their money however they want. the only things that have been worked more than this card are the Kardashian's and I-95. Do they draw the line at the name on the bottom border? If the bottom border was also gone, it is obviously a Wagner. What about a Doyle or Magie? Do I just send in a borderless one, pay the 14k or whatever and request the card I want? I'm certainly no whale in this hobby but I collect certain items because I enjoy them. Some a few dollars, some are many thousands. I was never looking to flip my cards or make money. I collect what I like and figured if I had to sell years later I could at least break even. I can only imagine the work being done to transform 7's into 8's and 8's into 9's and so on. Between this and the other thread about the fake signed T206's, I'm losing interest in this hobby.

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I think it is fair to say that with respect to the Magie or Doyle, inasmuch as the bottom border is what makes the card the variation it is, it is nonsensical to refer to that card as a Magie or Doyle Nat'l if it did not have the original bottom border and printing. Without it, the card's designation would be counterfeit, not restored.

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hypothetically what if a Magie error were trimmed and only the Magie error part was left and then adhered over a regular Magee card? Both pieces would be real? Just giving some thought to the subject.
Didn't we see one of the Just So's done that way and it came out pretty good!!

Leon, that would be one helluva of a job of trimming--leaving only the bottom border! BUT, hypothetically, as you say, if that was to be done, great question how the hobby would regard the final outcome.

The Just So, as I recall, retained the original player image and inserted new borders cannibalized from another (actress subject) Just So.

[rats60]

Any opinions on this now that it sold for 420k? 2 years ago REA sold a SGC 10 for 444k and now a restored one brings almost the same price.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by rats60

Any opinions on this now that it sold for 420k? 2 years ago REA sold a SGC 10 for 444k and now a restored one brings almost the same price.

I believe this Sale is evidence of maturation of the hobby amongst collectors/investors. As more people enter the hobby with deep pockets who may know/care less about the hobby And just have to have a particular cardthe idea of restorations alterations are becoming more Acceptable like other aspects of the art/collecting world.

Many collectors used to have the opinion that it’s better to have a hole in a card than a hole in your collection. Personally I never accepted this doctrine as I sought creasefree presentable cards irrespective of the actual numerical grade. As time went on myself and others realized that some cards are in such short supply that you just need to take whatever is available if you eally wanted that card. Similarly are used to hate altered cards even if they presented well where as now I think a lot of collectors are more inclined to pick up these beautifully presenting cards even though they have been slightly altered as opposed to ugly examples in lower grade.

[rats60]

Slightly altered would be soaked, pressed corner or crease, trimmed edge, etc. This card went through major restoration. It is understandable demand of low pop cards in low grade or even altered cards that look nice. However, this card had 3 borders cut off. By restoring it does that make it worth more? Or is this the bottom on price now and altered or low grade worth more than before?