Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It obviously isn't the AHs' fault.

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I agree with this, to a point. I think there is a systemic problem with blindly trusting third party grading. It's far too easy for a seller, AH or otherwise, to hide behind the fact that it was given a green light by a "professional grader/authenticator" and try to wash their hands of all liability. IMO, if you accept money for something, regardless of where you are in the chain, you need to be at least partially responsible for its legitimacy.

I think it sort has been all along anyways, but certainly will be from now, for me to just assume an auto is fake until I have been convinced otherwise, which will now be pretty much impossible since that was the whole point of third party grading to begin with.

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

I more had autos in mind, but to your example, I'd say it depends on where the perceived value lies. Is the value in the card, or in the card in the slab? Obviously in most cases these days most of the value is in the latter. If they cracked it, then at that point they can no longer return to you the item which you sold them, which was the card in the slab - the moment they crack it out, it becomes a different product. At that point I wouldn't think they would be entitled to a refund from you and should go straight back to the TPG that originally graded it and sort it out with them.

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

Because when you were the buyer of said card (assuming you bought it and weren't the one to have it slabbed), the onus was on you to do your due diligence before buying it. You felt like you shouldn't have had to because it was slabbed (which is of course the whole point of slabbing), but clearly that notion is wrong.... and now as the seller of said card, your lack of that due diligence shouldn't just get transferred to the next buyer and leave you off the hook. It's impossible to assign a percentage of responsibility to each party in this scenario, but to hide behind ignorance and a slab just feels dirty to me. That's how I feel, anyway.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by conor912

Because when you were the buyer of said card (assuming you bought it and weren't the one to have it slabbed), the onus was on you to do your due diligence before buying it. You felt like you shouldn't have had to because it was slabbed (which is of course the whole point of slabbing), but clearly that notion is wrong.... and now as the seller of said card, your lack of that due diligence shouldn't just get transferred to the next buyer and leave you off the hook. It's impossible to assign a percentage of responsibility to each party in this scenario, but to hide behind ignorance and a slab just feels dirty to me. That's how I feel, anyway.

I understand and respect that perspective, but I don't think it's realistic or fair. The buyer is buying the TPG's opinion, not mine, or so I believe.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand and respect that perspective, but I don't think it's realistic or fair. The buyer is buying the TPG's opinion, not mine, or so I believe.

I think it's fair, but I agree probably not realistic. Either way, it's a murky mess.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think that's right. But suppose I, a non-expert, sell a slabbed autograph card. A year later, information comes out that the TPG made a mistake and in fact the auto is a fake. Why am I on the hook a year later for someone else's fraud (the forger's) and the TPG's mistake?

I think the answer to your question is that you profited from the sale of the card, the TPA did not. Why should any seller be able to keep profits from a card, or any item for that matter, that was not as described? While it is not your fault for making the auto bad, the seller still profits. To me, it seems the seller would refund the buyer and then try to get a refund from the person they bought it from and so on.
I asked this type of question in another thread. Being that TPAs are promoting their service as much to enhance the value of an item, as they are to provide confidence in authenticity of said item, what obligation do they have to any one person in the buyer-seller transaction realm with regards to the change in value of the item? I don't know the legal answer to that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I think the answer to your question is that you profited from the sale of the card, the TPA did not. Why should any seller be able to keep profits from a card, or any item for that matter, that was not as described? While it is not your fault for making the auto bad, the seller still profits. To me, it seems the seller would refund the buyer and then try to get a refund from the person they bought it from and so on.
I asked this type of question in another thread. Being that TPAs are promoting their service as much to enhance the value of an item, as they are to provide confidence in authenticity of said item, what obligation do they have to any one person in the buyer-seller transaction realm with regards to the change in value of the item? I don't know the legal answer to that.

In my case, more likely I lost money than profited. And arguably the item is as described -- a card authenticated by whichever TPG. I would have no issue taking back a card within a reasonable window for whatever reason even a bad one, but I'm not sure it's fair to keep a seller on the hook for a year, two years, whatever in the case of a TPG card.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my case, more likely I lost money than profited. And arguably the item is as described -- a card authenticated by whichever TPG. I would have no issue taking back a card within a reasonable window for whatever reason even a bad one, but I'm not sure it's fair to keep a seller on the hook for a year, two years, whatever in the case of a TPG card.

AH. Let me clarify my answer.

I think, if the person breaks the slab, then I agree with you in some ways. You sold a slabbed card. The person is returning an unslabbed card. Who's to say they didn't do something to the card or are trying to do something underhanded themselves. Supposed the TPA dropped it and damaged the card? I can definitely see there being a case for not accepting it back in that instance.
What I was more addressing was the slabbed card being returned in the same condition but now being know to be fake. Somehow I think I interpreted one of your responses that way.
I agree with Conor in that if you are selling an item, you should stand behind that item, but when the item has been altered it makes the water much more muddy.
As far as the time frame, with a business like a known dealer, the time frame should not matter. When it's a collector to collector, it becomes difficult to swallow the further out it goes. I don't think there is any one right way.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So if I sell an expensive TPG graded card on ebay, and a year later the buyer cracks it out looking for a bump but it gets rejected, should he be able to come back to me and demand a refund?

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

Different. Stolen goods work the way they do because a seller of stolen goods cannot convey good title and the transaction is a nullity to begin with. If I sell you a card that turns out to be fake, in good faith, that's not a nullity from the outset. Of course we can debate the ethics of what should happen.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by steve B

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

No, because once it leaves the slab you lost the TPG guarantee. You can’t just stick it to a prior owner at that point.

[steve B]

Fair enough on both explanations.

I've always taken my attitude from the coin and stamp guy whose shop I hung out at in college. (Probably should have spent a bit less time there... )
He took back an altered coin several years after he'd sold it. It wasn't slabbed.
Basically it went like
"Hi, do you remember this coin? "
"Yeah, you got it from me a few years ago"
"Well I sent it in and it came back as altered"
looks with loupe "How the heck did I miss that? Yeah, it's altered. If I remember right you paid about X for it"
"It was a while ago, but that sounds about right"
"Ok, is a check ok or would you like cash?"


Since seeing that I've always been comfortable buying pretty much anything from him.