Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[Peter_Spaeth]

We didn't learn much from Operation Bullpen, did we? Over and over, people are going to fall for fraud because wishful thinking trumps common sense.

[RichardSimon]

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees. I would also think asset seizure to make restitution.

[Laxcat]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees.

Let us all hope he is wrong. And if not, may god have mercy on this forger’s soul because no one here will.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

A friend of mine has speculated that the forger is a member of 54. He has no evidence and said he did not have someone in mind, just a random thought. If so I would think he has a one-way ticket to a country without an extradition treaty by now . If the FBI does truly get involved this seems like it will wind up as an open and shut case, with a lengthy prison sentence at the end of that tunnel, not to mention high legal fees. I would also think asset seizure to make restitution.

Pie in the sky thoughts. I have said this at least a half dozen times, it’s not law enforcement who charges cases, it’s district attorneys and US attorneys. If these attorneys could care less about negotiating light sentances for violent crime do you really think they’re going to care about a baseball card autograph forgery case. For everyone who continues to make these comments, please wake up and smell the coffee.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Pie in the sky thoughts. I have said this at least a half dozen times, it’s not law enforcement who charges cases, it’s district attorneys and US attorneys. If these attorneys could care less about negotiating light sentances for violent crime do you really think they’re going to care about a baseball card autograph forgery case. For everyone who continues to make these comments, please wake up and smell the coffee.

Jason,
I have worked with more than one LE person in autograph cases and I know they have been very diligent in pursuing criminals.
But you are correct about the US Atty and district attorney. I and others here know of one instance where vigorous work by LE led to a dropped ball by a US Atty. .
But I have seen cases, as we all have, where the criminals have not gotten off so lightly.
And I do think that if major auction houses get behind this, perhaps that would make it difficult for this criminal(s) to get a light sentence.

[Duluth Eskimo]

My comment wasn’t to bash on you as I know everyone’s heart is in the right place. Problem is the criminal justice system is very broken and good hard work and efforts throughout the system is hard to find. Silver platter cases rot on the vine many times because people fail or refuse to do their jobs.

Some of the hardest work for investigating hobby crimes comes from members of this board. The best thing to do is put these people on blast and publicly shame the hell out of them. If prosecution happens, great. If not, the hobby still gets its pound of flesh. The authentication companies and auctions have nothing to gain from publicizing this. This publicity has been forced by this board.

Everyone, keep up the good work. Jason

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Pie in the sky thoughts. I have said this at least a half dozen times, it’s not law enforcement who charges cases, it’s district attorneys and US attorneys. If these attorneys could care less about negotiating light sentances for violent crime do you really think they’re going to care about a baseball card autograph forgery case. For everyone who continues to make these comments, please wake up and smell the coffee.

We have a strange, strange legal system, no doubt.

All depends on the states, the rules, the attorneys, how much money you have, your legal team, etc., etc., etc....

Saw an episode of American Greed the other day about the shoplifting Bogdanov family. They lifted literally millions of dollars worth of goods over several years, crossed state lines constantly to do their business and attracted the attention of federal authorities to conduct an investigation and prosecution that must have cost 100's of thousands of dollars itself.

Had fences everywhere and sold their crap on Ebay/Amazon for millions.

They got 4 years, 3 years and 15 months respectively.

Meanwhile there's a women in Texas with a resident card who thought that it entitled her to be able to vote that is serving 7 years, and there's probably 1000's of potheads throughout the entire country serving 20+ years or more for non-violent offenses, while most of the nation is finally coming to grips that it's more benign and medically worthwhile then most of the stuff that the pharmaceutical companies pump out to us legally (and I'm speaking as someone who's never partaken myself).

BTW is Coach's Corner still in business?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

We have a strange, strange legal system, no doubt.

All depends on the states, the rules, the attorneys, how much money you have, your legal team, etc., etc., etc....

Saw an episode of American Greed the other day about the shoplifting Bogdanov family. They lifted literally millions of dollars worth of goods over several years, crossed state lines constantly to do their business and attracted the attention of federal authorities to conduct an investigation and prosecution that must have cost 100's of thousands of dollars itself.

Had fences everywhere and sold their crap on Ebay/Amazon for millions.

They got 4 years, 3 years and 15 months respectively.

Meanwhile there's a women in Texas with a resident card who thought that it entitled her to be able to vote that is serving 7 years, and there's probably 1000's of potheads throughout the entire country serving 20+ years or more for non-violent offenses, while most of the nation is finally coming to grips that it's more benign and medically worthwhile then most of the stuff that the pharmaceutical companies pump out to us legally (and I'm speaking as someone who's never partaken myself).

BTW is Coach's Corner still in business?

I mete and dole unequal laws unto a savage race.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I mete and dole unequal laws unto a savage race.

Thanks Ulysses.

[Blunder19]

in these situations.. who is responsible to refund the buyer? is it the auction house for selling the card advertised as authentic? or the grading company for labeling it authentic? can any of the council board members chime in?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

We have a strange, strange legal system, no doubt.

All depends on the states, the rules, the attorneys, how much money you have, your legal team, etc., etc., etc....

Saw an episode of American Greed the other day about the shoplifting Bogdanov family. They lifted literally millions of dollars worth of goods over several years, crossed state lines constantly to do their business and attracted the attention of federal authorities to conduct an investigation and prosecution that must have cost 100's of thousands of dollars itself.

Had fences everywhere and sold their crap on Ebay/Amazon for millions.

They got 4 years, 3 years and 15 months respectively.

Meanwhile there's a women in Texas with a resident card who thought that it entitled her to be able to vote that is serving 7 years, and there's probably 1000's of potheads throughout the entire country serving 20+ years or more for non-violent offenses, while most of the nation is finally coming to grips that it's more benign and medically worthwhile then most of the stuff that the pharmaceutical companies pump out to us legally (and I'm speaking as someone who's never partaken myself).

BTW is Coach's Corner still in business?

Unrelated to this thread, but to this post. I was responsible for the defendant who got 15 months. So I got that going for me, which is nice.

As for this whole mess, seems like Spence has lost most if not all credibility. I get missing one or 2, but this is an avalanche of fraud.
Ive always thought "autograph authenticators" were kind of a scam. No specialized training or schooling. just "looking at alot of autos." its a scam when the FBI does it, and when private companies do as well.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We didn't learn much from Operation Bullpen, did we? Over and over, people are going to fall for fraud because wishful thinking trumps common sense.

That is why pyramid schemes have been so successful.
Some pyramid schemes have reaped billions for the founders.

[Chris-Counts]

"... they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too ..."

A ton of signed Goudeys were recently auctioned off by REA, and it's amazing how many sold for between $5,000 and $10,000 each. Not just stars, but average players with tough autographs. I'll bet some of those buyers are nervously watching this thread.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

"... they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too ..."

A ton of signed Goudeys were recently auctioned off by REA, and it's amazing how many sold for between $5,000 and $10,000 each. Not just stars, but average players with tough autographs. I'll bet some of those buyers are nervously watching this thread.

This kind of money might just get LE interested.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

"... they have been doing tons of Goudey cards too ..."

A ton of signed Goudeys were recently auctioned off by REA, and it's amazing how many sold for between $5,000 and $10,000 each. Not just stars, but average players with tough autographs. I'll bet some of those buyers are nervously watching this thread.

Who wants to start looking for Goudeys? I've tried looking for a few with no luck. I'm not experienced with this issue.

The signed ones I've seen look suspiciously like the forged T206 cards. Same style of handwriting. I've seen quite a few with signatures in exactly the same place and at the same angle, but with different pens. Very weird and highly improbable.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Who wants to start looking for Goudeys? I've tried looking for a few with no luck. I'm not experienced with this issue.

The signed ones I've seen look suspiciously like the forged T206 cards. Same style of handwriting. I've seen quite a few with signatures in exactly the same place and at the same angle, but with different pens. Very weird and highly improbable.

They'd probably be harder to find just by the sheer virtue that Goudeys are, from what I've seen, more readily available, less valuable and more often sold in lots as opposed to individual cards, and more seldom slabbed in lower grades.

[Lordstan]

I posted this in a similar thread on the auto side, but feel it is relevant here as well.

The problem, and my main bone of contention with TPAs in my many rants on Net54 and other places, is that people placed them too high on a pedestal. The public took TPA OPINIONS, and made them definitive confirmations of truth. I saw an interview of a panel of autograph experts, from a number of years ago, where Kevin Keating, who was one of the panel, stated that he wished what PSA would give were called a "Letter of Opinion" rather than a "Letter of Authenticity" for this exact reason. This blind faith in TPAs has given rise to the lowering of our guard as to what we know vs what we want to believe. Due diligence was now something the TPAs were supposed to do for us. Unfortunately, it would be impossible for them to process the volume of autos they do and still take the time to do the legwork Manny did to open up this can of worms.
Now the TPAs did nothing to stop people from taking their opinions as fact. Why would they? The more people trust them, the more business they get.(which of course leads to higher volume which means less time spent per auto, This also means less time to do any sort of investigation like has been done with the T206s. This also means that less skilled and experienced people would need to be vetting the autos in order to meet the time guidelines for submission levels.)
The auction houses also share responsibility as they have now outsourced much of their due diligence to TPAs, for both autos and cards. Why wouldn't they? They get to have clean hands from any disputes as they are not responsible for saying the autos are real. By pushing more and more on the TPA, this furthers their reputation of reliability which increases their business volume, which makes all the problems I noted before that much worse.

No solution will satisfy everyone is the reality. TPAs have good and bad things about them. IMO, The best way to collect autos is to 1) due your own due diligence. Start by being a skeptic and demand the auto be proven real rather than the other way. 2) Develop a network of people whose opinion you trust to help you see things without emotion. 3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible. 4)If it's too good to be true it probably is.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Unfortunately, it would be impossible for them to process the volume of autos they do and still take the time to do the legwork Manny did to open up this can of worms.

It is my understanding that Manny found these in minutes through a simple search. For $XXX, I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect 10 minutes of online research into a particular card.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

3) Understand what level of risk you are willing to accept. If your answer is none, then you should not collect anything at all. Save your money and go on vacations around the world. Anywhere demand and money meet, criminals will look to take advantage. It is true in any collectible.

I wrote this is post 290 of this thread. IMO, This is the proper mindset for anyone collecting anything. There will always be bad people trying to take advantage of situations for power, money, control, etc. We all need to define our tolerance level for that risk. I collect autographs because I am comfortable with the risk that is involved. I take measures to try to mitigate that risk, but fully understand that my collection very likely has some bad items in it. Would I prefer them to not be there? SUre. unfortunately, the only way to guarantee that is to only collect autos I see signed in person. To me that would lessen my enjoyment of my hobby

[insidethewrapper]

I wonder if any more of these auto cards are sitting at SGC, PSA etc waiting to be certified ? They would have been sent in weeks ago .

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I wonder if any more of these auto cards are sitting at SGC, PSA etc waiting to be certified ? They would have been sent in weeks ago .

Great point. You’d think the forgers machine is still rolling and that there would be new attempts at Authentication currently at these companies.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I wonder if any more of these auto cards are sitting at SGC, PSA etc waiting to be certified ? They would have been sent in weeks ago .

I was wondering how many are sitting at auction houses right now, waiting to be listed?

[Exhibitman]

The culprits need to be outed. When they are outed and we know who they are they will lose their ability to deal with us and anyone else who finds the post. If it saves even one collector from being cheated it is worthwhile.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The culprits need to be outed. When they are outed and we know who they are they will lose their ability to deal with us and anyone else who finds the post. If it saves even one collector from being cheated it is worthwhile.

Agreed.