Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[rommesc]

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Apologies if these two have already been discussed that sold in Hunt's October monthly auction. While the Barbeau is SGC, the McBride is a PSA example.

I would have provided a direct link but we all know Hunt's website is horrendous and I cant even figure out how to search their completed monthly auctions.

See post 194 showing the before and after photos of the forged Barbeau card. The McBride is an exact match to one of the six McBride cards from The Great Pittsburg find.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by rommesc

See post 194 showing the before and after photos of the forged Barbeau card. The McBride is an exact match to one of the six McBride cards from The Great Pittsburg find.

So what you're saying is that the cards from the Great Pittsburgh find are bad too. No, stop, it can't be.

Here's another tip: don't take expert advice from people who have been defrauded more than anyone seeking their advice.

[swarmee]

Maybe I misinterpreted him on the McBride, but I thought he meant that those were all good, and this card is clean because if its provenance.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Maybe I misinterpreted him on the McBride, but I thought he meant that those were all good, and this card is clean because if its provenance.

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

Was there a lot of interest in Snowgrass, Doyle and others back in 2007 to warrant forgeries?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jad22

Was there a lot of interest in Snowgrass, Doyle and others back in 2007 to warrant forgeries?

I wish it was as simple as using common sense here. That if there was little interest in a signed card it would be more likely to be real. Makes sense, except as we've learned, many forgeries are on small ticket items instead of the Babe Ruths. And it's not like autograph forgeries are a relatively new phenomenon. Remember, the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in the US, not the $50 or $100 bill.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I wish it was as simple as using common sense here. That if there was little interest in a signed card it would be more likely to be real. Makes sense, except as we've learned, many forgeries are on small ticket items instead of the Babe Ruths. And it's not like autograph forgeries are a relatively new phenomenon. Remember, the $20 bill is the most counterfeited bill in the US, not the $50 or $100 bill.

Great point Jeff! Plus, I can say with 100% certainty that the major Authenticators place much more emphasis, time and due diligence on the Ruth’s, Cobb’s, Gehrig’s, Mathewson’s, etc. The TPG’s exemplar files for the major HOFs are so much more extensive from both a “good” vs. “bad” perspective. It’s much more difficult to pull off “fraud” on the higher-end scripts. Of course, this does not excuse them from not doing their homework on any autographs. When I purchase a valuable autograph, while I certainly need a respectable LOA, I always use my own common sense and expertise before pulling the trigger.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

That may be but either way, the idea that people weren't forging signatures before 2007 is crazy. In every "find" there is a gap in the chain of custody which we fill in with hope, greed or some other sin. The values of these cards will reflect reality now, not hope.

People have been forging signatures on T206 cards since they were packing them with tobacco products. Through the mail autographs suffer from a chain of custody issue to be sure. I just happen to believe that the Pittsburgh Find cards have the some of the best provenance you can find if you choose to collect signed T206s. I am now going back over all of my emails from 2007 and piecing together as much additional corroborative circumstantial evidence as possible. I’ll publish it and let people believe what they want to believe.

If you have cards from the Great Pittsburgh Find, the Morey collection, or the recent Steiner Auction that you would like to sell now, please let me know.

[slightlyrounded]

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

I think this is definitely possible, but from I’ve seen people don’t want to pay for the cost a service like this would cost. Think about how much complaining is done about a $20 grading fee.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

Also realize that too many collectors and dealers don't seriously care about authenticity. They just want a label or certificate to facilitate resale. Many people on the PSA registry don't care really care if their cards have been altered or misgraded. They only care about the number on the label.

I'm not an autograph person, but my friend is a serious and learned one. He does his own research and studies before, during and after buying-- and will agree and disagree with TPA verdicts--, but also knows the LOAs are useful for resale because many buyers go strictly by the TPA LOA. I also imagine that he thinks it useful to have someone else's (TPA) opinion on an autograph, even if he sometimes disagrees.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by slightlyrounded

Why somebody hasn't set up a transparent authentication service that employs a huge database of known transactions + AI (or, Mechanical Turk) is beyond me.

'Lenny and his loupe' may be enough for a grading service, but there are FAR better tools for authentication if anyone cared to use them. I'd love to buy a graded card knowing EXACTLY what databases were searched (examples: ebay sale date range, auction house list, known provenance chain) and if any red flags were raised.

Cost. And known database pictures only go back 15 years and don’t begin to touch live sales at shows and stores and in private. This extra service would add little.