Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

Lordstan · #1 12-07-2018, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

I have also wondered, since joining this site, even if a signed card was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago, how does one know, without provenance, if that signature is real?

The reality is you can't KNOW that a signature is real unless you see it signed in person. Even if your best friend gives you a signed item, you still can't KNOW, as in absolutely certain. You believe the person is being honest as they are your friend, but you can't know it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

I have also always wondered, if the player had passed on prior to those years, what do TPAs use as their basis for comparison?

There are many items people use as exemplars based upon the preponderance of evidence. If it's good enough for our court system that can sentence people to life imprisonment or even possibly death, then it should be good enough for vetting autographs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

In my opinion, if the TPA's don't have/own something that acts as a certified template with undeniable provenance, then how can they 100% guarantee the sig is legit?

TPAs CAN NOT and DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING except for witnessed events. The certification process is about them giving an opinion. That's it. They are no different than anyone on this board. We can all give our opinions based upon each of our own experience and knowledge. The only difference really is that the TPAs have convinced people that their opinion is worth paying for. People pay for them and then sleep better at night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

I think the only way of going forward from now on, and only if the test can be 100% guaranteed, carbon dating or something similar will now have to be used in order to bring some trust back into the hobby? Just my thoughts anyway.

As I posted earlier, if you are only comfortable with 100% certainty, you should not collect ANYTHING. There is fraud in every single collectible market.

irv · #2 12-07-2018, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan

The reality is you can't KNOW that a signature is real unless you see it signed in person. Even if your best friend gives you a signed item, you still can't KNOW, as in absolutely certain. You believe the person is being honest as they are your friend, but you can't know it.

There are many items people use as exemplars based upon the preponderance of evidence. If it's good enough for our court system that can sentence people to life imprisonment or even possibly death, then it should be good enough for vetting autographs.

TPAs CAN NOT and DO NOT GUARANTEE ANYTHING except for witnessed events. The certification process is about them giving an opinion. That's it. They are no different than anyone on this board. We can all give our opinions based upon each of our own experience and knowledge. The only difference really is that the TPAs have convinced people that their opinion is worth paying for. People pay for them and then sleep better at night.

As I posted earlier, if you are only comfortable with 100% certainty, you should not collect ANYTHING. There is fraud in every single collectible market.

I added this above, Mark.

"EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?"

I understand what you are saying but I honestly didn't realize there was so much blind faith/hope in the hobby, especially when large amounts of money are being laid down for said cards.

But like me and my sole purchase of a signed 52 Topps card, seeing it in a certified slab was enough for me.

This whole thread/situation has definitely been an eye opener for me even though I don't collect signed cards.

Like I have said numerous times since I joined this site back in 2016, I had no idea, gave it no thought whatsoever, that fraud would be so prevalent in this hobby or that it even existed.
Oh, how I have quickly learned!

The Nasty Nati · #3 12-07-2018, 10:35 AM

Oh the irony of this SGC article.

Hankphenom · #4 12-07-2018, 04:26 PM

When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.

jad22 · #5 12-07-2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

When I used to set up at shows with (my friend) Kevin Keating, the well-known TPAs would frequently bring items over to solicit his opinion of them, and conversely on occasion he would want to know what they thought about pieces. If memory serves correctly, when the autograph side of PSA was first organized 20 years ago, it was a team effort whereby a number of their authenticators would "vote" on submissions to determine whether they got a pass or not. The fact that different authenticators might have different opinions about some autographs shouldn't be surprising to anyone. And it seems to me the fact that the current team at PSA would have the honesty and institutional freedom to reverse a prior authentication of their company should be applauded. What more could you ask of them? As for such divergent opnions on resubmitted items calling into question all opinions rendered by the prior authenticators, anyone is free to resubmit items they think might get a different opinion today.

I am sure everyone will be clamoring to pay PSA more money for somebody else to re-certify or un-certify their items.

Hankphenom · #6 12-07-2018, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jad22

I am sure everyone will be clamoring to pay PSA more money for somebody else to re-certify or un-certify their items.

No, I don't think there will be a lot of that!

packs · #7 12-07-2018, 04:38 PM

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

drcy · #8 12-07-2018, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact.

+1

itslarry · #9 12-08-2018, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

I agree, as long as they don't make a mistake. By that I mean authenticating something that CAN'T be real, such as signed on or with an item after death. Things of that nature aren't an opinion to me and is on them.

drcy · #10 12-08-2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itslarry

I agree, as long as they don't make a mistake. By that I mean authenticating something that CAN'T be real, such as signed on or with an item after death. Things of that nature aren't an opinion to me and is on them.

I agree. They are giving opinions and their opinions should be treated as opinions. However, there should be a level of competency and due care involved. Their feet can fairly be held to the fire by the hobby for that-- and certainly hobbyists can and should point out when their conclusions are wrong.

Fred · #11 12-08-2018, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

Republicaninmass · #12 12-08-2018, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

Wondering if he will opine

conor912 · #13 12-08-2018, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Perhaps JSA should change to JSO, it would seem to be more fitting and accurate. JSOpinions.....

You beat me to it. I was going to suggest Professional Sports Opionators, or Sportscard Opinions..

Peter_Spaeth · #14 12-08-2018, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

AGuinness · #15 12-08-2018, 02:22 PM

I think it would be great to hold TPGs, AHs and others involved in this accountable, BUT...

There are approximately 10,000 members on this board, not all active. That represents a small fraction of the collecting population in this country (not to mention the world). And while I've read about specific instances within this forgery scam when an AH or someone would make a customer whole after selling a forgery, what is being done in the broader hobby? I don't think I have heard of any AH or TPG addressing this in a public way, and with the authorities keeping things close to the vest (for better or for worse), how much is this scandal getting the attention of the larger collecting population?

I went to a local show shortly after this whole thread got started and the news broke. And nobody I spoke with (it was just a handful of dealers) had heard yet, and none of them were members here. Granted, this is a small show in a smaller city, but that sample size might indicate that this is flying below the radar of a vast many collectors.

I hope that EVERYONE in the hobby is aware of this, and thanks to everyone for spreading the word (including Rich and everyone at SCD with a couple stories on it). I think that with the knowledge and passion of the board members here (and most of you have forgotten more than what I'll ever know about collecting), we can put some pressure on TPGs, AHs, etc. But I think we'll need to keep spreading the word and getting people riled up about it beyond this corner of the collecting community.

packs · #16 12-08-2018, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course you can fault them. Implicit in the opinion is the representation that the grader/authenticator is competent to render an opinion. If that isn't true...

How do you know they're not? I've never read a single LOA that mentions anything other than an opinion.

Duluth Eskimo · #17 12-09-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A TPG renders an opinion. I don't think you can fault someone for their opinion on a given day when they assessed the authenticity of an item. It's the hobby that tries to twist TPG opinions into fact. I don't think the companies owe anyone anything if something they authenticated is later determined to be forged. It's the seller and AH that need to make things right. The TPG didn't benefit from the sale and they gave the submitter exactly what they paid for: an opinion.

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn�t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can�t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

ejharrington · #18 12-09-2018, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn�t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can�t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

People pay for an educated opinion, not just an opinion. I personally feel bad for anyone who was defrauded.

irv · #19 12-09-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn�t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can�t believe the arguments that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

I respectfully disagree with both of you.

Imo, and although I am still learning as I go here, when I first back into the hobby and realized we now had "Authenticators" in all forms of the hobby, including signatures, I took that as a guarantee that if I submitted something that I had questions/concerns about, and, depending on what the "Expert Authenticator" deemed, I could take that to the bank that it was legit or not legit.

It's the same, imo, as finding an old painting at a flea market or something similar but not knowing, once you discovered a popular artist might have painted it, whether it is authentic or not so you send it in to a well known authenticator to find out for sure.

I am not an art collector so I don't know the ins and outs of those types of authenticators, but I am pretty sure, depending on who you send it to, that you can pretty much guarantee that whatever they say will likely stick and be the truth.

With cards and memorabilia, despite the claims of being "Experts" "The best in the business" "World's Leading", yada, yada, yada, you are still telling me the only real thing to trust is my gut?

I know now what you're saying to be true, but I guarantee, as we have seen in the past and just recently, I am not the only one who thinks this way. When you read on TPA sites that they "Authenticate" and are the "Experts" in their field, have certificates, letters of authenticity, etc, you trust those claims, (especially if you aren't an experienced, seasoned collector like me) and put all your faith in them.

Sadly, as I have learned, much/all of those claims don't mean squat and aren't worth the paper they are written on.

It's quite the racket these TPAs have going. Throw out some frivolous, meaningless claims and then watch the money roll in.

Stampsfan · #20 12-10-2018, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This exactly. Way too many people follow here opinion as facts. These people are sheep and when they get slaughtered I feel very little sympathy for them. Let me clarify, you are paying for an opinion. Those opinions differ amongst authenticators. Just because you feel all warm and fuzzy doesn�t mean they should reimburse you anything. I can�t believe the arguements that people are trying to make when the opinion someone gives turns out to be wrong. It is a completely different story if you can prove that the opinion given is wrong and the authenticator is knowingly authenticating a non authentic item. People need to stop throwing blame at other people and look in the mirror.

When you pay for something, you expect to get the service performed efficiently and with some expertise.

If I went to my lawyer for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my accountant for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my mechanic for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

If I went to my doctor for his/her opinion, I would be making decisions based on their expertise.

All of these people theoretically have a skill set that exceed my own; that is why I pay for their services. When people here say you need to educate yourself... well, I don't have time to educate myself on all areas I may need help and advice on. I don't have time to do all the research and educate myself in medicine, law, accounting, or auto mechanics.

Why do we give these guys a free pass for failing? Most people would not be quite so easy to forgive the so-called experts in other professions.

Lordstan · #21 12-07-2018, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

I understand what you are saying but I honestly didn't realize there was so much blind faith/hope in the hobby, especially when large amounts of money are being laid down for said cards.

To me this is the biggest reason stuff like this can happen. People abdicated the responsibility for doing their own research and the healthy skepticism needed when vetting any item just because a Third Party Authenticator gave their stamp of approval. As people learned, this goes the same for cards as well as autos.

What having a TPA did was make cards and autos commodities that required no expertise to buy and sell. In the old days, G-VG-Ex-ExMt-Mt could mean widely different things to people. Having a TPA was supposed to make all cards graded a 5 be in roughly the same condition. The likelihood is that card commerce on the internet has been greatly helped by the fact that people don't feel the need to inspect cards as closely before sale when they are slabbed as X grade. We know this does not always work and that is why so many people keep repeating the saying "buy the card, not the holder."

IMO, If all anyone ever looks at, is the slab or cert, it increases the likelihood they can be fooled based on that slab or cert. If you use the TPA opinion as one of MULTIPLE pieces of evidence, this would then have the possibility of increasing your safety margin. More data = opportunity to make a better decision. Now, we still might make an incorrect evaluation, but having more data points allows for higher probability of getting it right.

jchcollins · #22 12-07-2018, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan

In the old days, G-VG-Ex-ExMt-Mt could mean widely different things to people. Having a TPA was supposed to make all cards graded a 5 be in roughly the same condition. The likelihood is that card commerce on the internet has been greatly helped by the fact that people don't feel the need to inspect cards as closely before sale when they are slabbed as X grade. We know this does not always work and that is why so many people keep repeating the saying "buy the card, not the holder."

There was also a time when "tweener" grades like VG-EX, EX-MT, etc. were understood for what they truly were - proper ranges of condition meant to imply that different collectors can have different opinions. It was meant to be a helpful approximation. The result of what happened with the advent of TPG's was that those ranges in the 1980's and even early 90's are now supposedly (straight face here...) pinpoint accurate grades, and at least to some collectors this is taken to be deadly serious. You can even get half-grades "PSA 4.5 VG-EX+". What? That would probably be nonsensical to a 1980's collector if you went back in time. Shouldn't a VG-EX+ card be...um, simply "EX" if it was already on the border of that grade? I understand, I mean I get it should follow logically that what we have done over the last few decades is to make the scale more precise - but the problem with this in hobbies like coins and cards is that the more precision you try to squeeze into the scale, the more you run afoul of what different people think matters or does not matter for eye appeal - hence the controversy you see all the time on sites like this or on other social media sites today (Why didn't this card get an 8!? It's only a 7.5! I got cheated!!!) The move toward more precision streches the line that is already taught between aspects of technical grading that most people can agree with (i.e. any card with a true crease being "VG" or lower) vs. some of the more subtle aspects of eye appeal which can truly be subjective. PSA grading standards for a 5 EX say that "very minor rounding of the corners is becoming evident." Though most who collect graded cards today might actually be somewhat close to being on the same page as to what constitutes "5 corners" - tell me how that statement from PSA is ANYTHING but subjective - still today?

I will agree regretably that it seems like far too many collectors today do trust TPG's like PSA almost as the word of God. It's only when something really obvious like this comes out which is immediately controversial that some actually stop and think about the nature of a grade being an "opinion" and nothing beyond that.

I will also agree that for me personally, reputable TPG's are useful services for buying cards online / that I cannot physically inspect in my hands as if I were in a shop or at a show first. But beyond that - say what you will about collecting a few decades back. Even as kids - we were taught how to grade, what the subtle differences in condition were - why X card was NM and Y card was only EX...etc. etc. Now who today is really more of an expert - the graders at PSA who we cannot seem to get any information on in terms of their qualifications? Or hobbyists who have collected for decades on end and in some cases have literally had their hands on hundreds of thousands of cards?

I digress a bit as I don't collect autos and I'm sure there is another whole realm of TPA controversy over the evolution of the practice there...

drcy · #23 12-07-2018, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lordstan

IMO, If all anyone ever looks at, is the slab or cert, it increases the likelihood they can be fooled based on that slab or cert. If you use the TPA opinion as one of MULTIPLE pieces of evidence, this would then have the possibility of increasing your safety margin. More data = opportunity to make a better decision. Now, we still might make an incorrect evaluation, but having more data points allows for higher probability of getting it right.

+ 1

TPAs are useful independent opinions (It's wrong to say they're useless), but they are only one piece in the puzzle. Sellers and collectors should be using them as second opinions, not as the only opinions.

I think most people on Net54 know and do this, but clearly not everyone in and all segments of the hobby do.

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