Happy 50th Birthday to a Future Hall-of-Famer:

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Mussina should definitely be in before Smoltz and maybe Glavine. If Mussina had taken a job in the NL you could lower his era a half point and he would have had 300 wins. It’s hard to believe the voters haven’t taken that into account. My guess would be that he gets in either 2020 or 21.
Edgar does appear to be closing in. To me, Edgar doesn’t belong at all. If he played a position he wouldn’t even be in the conversation. Players career stats most comparable to him are Will Clark, Magglio Ordonez and Moises Alou. He had 2200 hits and 300 hr with no other real accolades. If you have a ballot I don’t know how you vote for Edgar before Fred McGriff, Jeff Kent and Larry Walker.
I expect Mariano and Halladay will sail in and they should.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Mussina should definitely be in before Smoltz and maybe Glavine. If Mussina had taken a job in the NL you could lower his era a half point and he would have had 300 wins. It’s hard to believe the voters haven’t taken that into account. My guess would be that he gets in either 2020 or 21.
Edgar does appear to be closing in. To me, Edgar doesn’t belong at all. If he played a position he wouldn’t even be in the conversation. Players career stats most comparable to him are Will Clark, Magglio Ordonez and Moises Alou. He had 2200 hits and 300 hr with no other real accolades. If you have a ballot I don’t know how you vote for Edgar before Fred McGriff, Jeff Kent and Larry Walker.
I expect Mariano and Halladay will sail in and they should.

Disagree. Glavine won 2 Cy Youngs was 2nd twice and 3rd twice. Smoltz also won a Cy Young and then went to the bullpen to help the Braves as a closer and won Fireman of the Year. Because of them the Braves won their division every year from 1991-2002 (2005 for Smoltz).

Mussina finished in the top 3 of Cy Young voting once. If Mussina gets elected, only Jack Morris and Red Ruffing will have higher ERAs. The lower ERA is ridiculous. The league difference is about .25 before ignoring that the pitching was much better in the NL. Who was Mussina competing with? Clemens 91-03 and Pedro 98-04. Still he couldn't win a Cy Young, never led in ERA or WHIP. Also, his win total would have been lower in the NL. In the AL, he never got pulled for a pinch hitter.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by rats60

Disagree. Glavine won 2 Cy Youngs was 2nd twice and 3rd twice. Smoltz also won a Cy Young and then went to the bullpen to help the Braves as a closer and won Fireman of the Year. Because of them the Braves won their division every year from 1991-2002 (2005 for Smoltz).

Mussina finished in the top 3 of Cy Young voting once. If Mussina gets elected, only Jack Morris and Red Ruffing will have higher ERAs. The lower ERA is ridiculous. The league difference is about .25 before ignoring that the pitching was much better in the NL. Who was Mussina competing with? Clemens 91-03 and Pedro 98-04. Still he couldn't win a Cy Young, never led in ERA or WHIP. Also, his win total would have been lower in the NL. In the AL, he never got pulled for a pinch hitter.

Let me throw some numbers out there.
Mussina 270-153 .638%. 2813 k, 3.68 era, 123 era+.
Glavine 305-203 .600%. 2607 k, 3.54 era, 118 era+.
Smoltz 213-155 .579%. 3084 k, 3.33 era, 125 era+. And 154 saves.

Era+ shows a truer measure of how the player performs in relation to their league. Yes, the Braves have a ws the cy. Mussina has 7 gold gloves - not as important but a nice plus. But you can’t convince me of any reason why the Braves would go in first ballot and Mussinas first year he got 20% and had to climb over 6 years to get close. I would argue that he’s way more deserving than Smoltz - who had good years as a starter and reliever but didn’t do enough as either to get in. And Mussina, in some ways, is better than Glavine. Glavine has the magic 300 number and the 2 cy but over the course of their career Mussina is right there.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Let me throw some numbers out there.
Mussina 270-153 .638%. 2813 k, 3.68 era, 123 era+.
Glavine 305-203 .600%. 2607 k, 3.54 era, 118 era+.
Smoltz 213-155 .579%. 3084 k, 3.33 era, 125 era+. And 154 saves.

Era+ shows a truer measure of how the player performs in relation to their league. Yes, the Braves have a ws the cy. Mussina has 7 gold gloves - not as important but a nice plus. But you can’t convince me of any reason why the Braves would go in first ballot and Mussinas first year he got 20% and had to climb over 6 years to get close. I would argue that he’s way more deserving than Smoltz - who had good years as a starter and reliever but didn’t do enough as either to get in. And Mussina, in some ways, is better than Glavine. Glavine has the magic 300 number and the 2 cy but over the course of their career Mussina is right there.

We will just have to disagree. ERA+ is heavily biased when there is a talent discrepancy between leagues like there was in Mussina's career. Changing careers wouldn't have effected his career ERA, which is bad by HOF standards, like you claim. He was never one of the top pitchers in his league despite a void of talent (only 1 top 3 Cy Young finish). He was an accumulator and that is the only reason his is getting HOF support.

Tom Glavine on the other hand was one of the best pitchers in baseball for a decade, 2 Cy Youngs, 6 top 3 finishes, led NL in wins 5 times and 9 division titles with the 10th year being the strike. He also hit the magic 300 win mark. He is a no brainer as a 1st ballot HOFer.

Smoltz is a little bit behind Glavine as he only had the 1 Cy Young season as a starter. His case is more a combination of that along with 3 seasons as an elite closer (144 saves and FotY) and a 15-4 postseason record. That is #2 in wins all time. For starters with 100+ innings only Curt Schilling had a better win percentage and Smoltz pitched 209 postseason innings. I wouldn't have put him in on the 1st ballot, but he is definitely ahead of Mussina. He is basically Mussina with 3+ years as an elite closer plus one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time.

[Snapolit1]

Mussina deserves to be in the Hall (of the Very Good). Right next to Baines.

[Promethius88]

Dave Concepcion deserves to be in the Hall. Assuming you believe that Ozzie Smith deserves to be there.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Dave Concepcion deserves to be in the Hall. Assuming you believe that Ozzie Smith deserves to be there.

Tim- make your case for your statement...or is it just an opinion?



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