Mariano

oldjudge · #1 01-22-2019, 06:20 PM

I think there is an argument that Mariano was the greatest pitcher ever. For those who think he was a one inning pitcher go back and look at the box score of the Aaron Boone playoff home run game. As importantly, if not more, Mariano is a better human being that he was a ball player. He will be a credit to the HOF and will now always be remembered as the first unanimous inductee.

bmattioli · #2 01-22-2019, 06:45 PM

2004 ALCS and Dave Roberts.. We all make mistakes.. He was pretty good though..

Al C.risafulli · #3 01-22-2019, 06:48 PM

Absolutely agree with Jay.

Saves or no saves, he pitched 19 seasons with a 1.00 WHIP and a lifetime ERA of 2.21, in the steroid era. His postseason ERA - against the toughest competition - was 0.70. Eleven earned runs in 141 October innings. Unflappable, and a humble, classy person.

I couldn't be happier.

-Al

packs · #4 01-22-2019, 06:54 PM

I am also of the opinion that Mariano was probably the greatest pitcher of all time. He is the son of a fisherman, has remained humble his entire life, and dominated baseball with one single pitch everyone knew was coming but could never figure out how to hit. I was at every Sunday home game for his whole career. You always knew the game was over when you saw him walk out.

Vintageclout · #5 01-22-2019, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think there is an argument that Mariano was the greatest pitcher ever. For those who think he was a one inning pitcher go back and look at the box score of the Aaron Boone playoff home run game. As importantly, if not more, Mariano is a better human being that he was a ball player. He will be a credit to the HOF and will now always be remembered as the first unanimous inductee.

Greatest closer ever....absolutely! Incredible Class....the best! Greatest pitcher ever...NOT A SNOWBALL’s CHANCE IN HELL!!!! Totally different scenario when you are facing a handful of hitters ONCE vs three/four times around in the same game. You can never compare a closer to a starter....no way.

rdixon1208 · #6 01-22-2019, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Greatest closet ever....absolutely! Incredible Class....the best! Greatest pitcher ever...NOT A SNOWBALL�s CHANCE IN HELL!!!! Totally different scenario when you are facing a handful of hitters ONCE vs three/four times around in the same game. You can never compare a closer to a starter....no way.

Couldn't agree more

ullmandds · #7 01-22-2019, 08:24 PM

Congrats to mariano...and moose and the rest of a deserving class. Def the best closer of all time... his cutter was practically unhittable and sawed bats in half at an alarming rate! I can�t think of any other player in the upcoming years more deserving of a unanimous vote.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 01-22-2019, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Congrats to mariano...and moose and the rest of a deserving class. Def the best closer of all time... his cutter was practically unhittable and sawed bats in half at an alarming rate! I can�t think of any other player in the upcoming years more deserving of a unanimous vote.

Derek Jeter for sure.

DeanH3 · #9 01-22-2019, 09:07 PM

Saw, or heard, a stat that said teams who led in the ninth converted something like 90%+ of the win regardless of who pitched. Not saying Rivera is not worthy. But it does put the "save" in some perspective.

the 'stache · #10 01-25-2019, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Derek Jeter for sure.

Bites tongue. Walks away.

the 'stache · #11 01-25-2019, 02:52 AM

Calling Rivera the "greatest pitcher of all-time" is just absurd.

Greatest reliever? Debatable, certainly, but I think he is.

But Rivera had one pitch. The cut fastball. That's it. That he is the "greatest of all-time", and closing games instead of starting them should be telling.

What if he were a starter? On the mound in the first inning, his one pitch is hitting maximum velocity. For a few innings, he might be able to keep it close to peak. But soon, that velocity starts to drop as fatigue sets in. And a Mariano Rivera with no other pitch to keep hitters off balance is a dead man walking. To employ Boston vernacular, "Rivera woulda gotten tuned up."

A designated hitter isn't DHing because he's the bestest hitter in the world. He's doing it because the guys on the field can do something he can't. Taken as a whole, his hitting and poor fielding provides less value than the starters on the field. A starting pitcher can do what a closer cannot. The closer provides less value, just as the DH.

Look at the Brewers' Josh Hader. Two seasons in Milwaukee. A 183 ERA+. His 2018 FIP of 2.23 would represent the fifth best of Rivera's career. His 0.811 WHIP would be the second best of Rivera's career. Hader struck out 143 batters in 81 1/3 IP, or 15.8/9 IP. The Major League record for strikeouts in a nine inning game is 20. Hader averages about 16 Ks per 9 innings.

Does anybody here think that Hader would be nearly that effective as a starter? I sure as hell don't. That there's a debate on Brewers forums, "should we keep him in the pen, or let him start" speaks volumes. If you had a pitcher that could throw six to seven innings, thirty-three times a season, and strike out 15.8 batters per 9 innings, you're seriously going to tell me you'd keep him in the pen? Say Hader threw 200 innings as a starter, keeping that K rate. That would put him at about 350 strikeouts.

And you're going to keep him in the pen? 350 strikeouts in 200 innings, with a sub 0.900 WHIP and a FIP below 2.25 is a Cy Young-winning top-of-the-rotation starter.

If Rivera has to face the same lineup three or four times in a game, with one pitch, there's not a chance in hell he maintains his effectiveness. He couldn't do the starter's job. But there are multiple starters in today's game that, if they assumed a closer's role, could do a job comparable to Rivera or Hader. Clayton Kershaw from a year or two ago, prior to his injuries, would absolutely baffle batters for an inning. Toss Chris Sale out there. Corey Kluber. Jacob deGrom had a 216 ERA+ over 32 starts and 217 IP. 1.70 ERA and a 1.99 FIP! Would you want to face him fresh, in the ninth inning, down by a run? Here, coach. Take my bat, and find somebody else. I'm going to look like John Kruk against Randy Johnson.

Rivera is not the best pitcher to ever play the game. Just stop it.

bigfanNY · #12 01-22-2019, 08:32 PM

Congratulations to Mariano Rivera on a great Career. Obviously being the only player EVER to be elected to the Hall Of Fame unanimously puts a target on your back. But as a lifelong Yankee fan I cannot imagine a person who deserves the honor more. That being said there are a number of players I cannot understand any baseball writer not voting for Seaver, Griffey.. The list is long. So as the first person to clear that bar, Mariano deserves to be recognized as one of the great pitchers of his generation. It was a pleasure to watch him pitch.
Jonathan Sterling

Exhibitman · #13 01-22-2019, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Greatest closet ever....absolutely! Incredible Class....the best! Greatest pitcher ever...NOT A SNOWBALL�s CHANCE IN HELL!!!! Totally different scenario when you are facing a handful of hitters ONCE vs three/four times around in the same game. You can never compare a closer to a starter....no way.

Greatest closet? Not that there�s anything wrong with that.

the 'stache · #14 01-25-2019, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Greatest closer ever....absolutely! Incredible Class....the best! Greatest pitcher ever...NOT A SNOWBALL�s CHANCE IN HELL!!!! Totally different scenario when you are facing a handful of hitters ONCE vs three/four times around in the same game. You can never compare a closer to a starter....no way.

Exactly what I would have said.

z28jd · #15 01-22-2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think there is an argument that Mariano was the greatest pitcher ever. For those who think he was a one inning pitcher go back and look at the box score of the Aaron Boone playoff home run game. As importantly, if not more, Mariano is a better human being that he was a ball player. He will be a credit to the HOF and will now always be remembered as the first unanimous inductee.

I can safely say that in all of the years I have known you Jay, I have never disagreed more. I can't imagine anyone thinking a failed starter who ended up pitching 1,200 innings is even in the same company as any of the best all-time starters, who actually closed their own games. You can make a better argument against him not being the best reliever ever because so many of his outings were marginal one inning save opportunities, while closers before his era constantly went multiple innings, facing the entire lineup. I call him the best one inning reliever ever. I don't think highly of any one inning pitcher, they're all over-rated.

baseball tourist · #16 01-24-2019, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z28jd

I can't imagine anyone thinking a failed starter who ended up pitching 1,200 innings is even in the same company as any of the best all-time starters, who actually closed their own games. You can make a better argument against him not being the best reliever ever because so many of his outings were marginal one inning save opportunities, while closers before his era constantly went multiple innings, facing the entire lineup. I call him the best one inning reliever ever. I don't think highly of any one inning pitcher, they're all over-rated.

Agreed

doug.goodman · #17 01-24-2019, 01:51 PM

I posted this in the poll thread :

Quote:

People keep saying that batters only saw Mariano once a game. That is true, but they often saw him multiple times a series and he basically threw one pitch. They knew what was coming�they just couldn�t hit it.

So what.

Are you telling me that if you had one of the 10 best pitchers of all time on your team you would only let him pitch 70 innings a season, most (if not all) coming in when you had a lead?

Seriously?

He was really really good, probably the best, at the job he was asked to do, I'll acknowledge that, but top 10 of all pitchers all time?

Come on.

Doug "Roy Gleason has a lifetime batting average of 1.000, slugging percentage of 2.000 and OPS of 3.000" Goodman

doug.goodman · #18 01-24-2019, 01:56 PM

I will gain a bit of solace knowing that when he walks to the podium in Cooperstown he will think to himself, "ugh, not this stupid song again"...

From Rolling Stone :
Rivera also addressed the subject of his former walk-up music. �If that was me, I would have never picked that song,� he said of �Enter Sandman.� �It would�ve been Christian music � It should have been something that put people to sleep.�

Touch'EmAll · #19 01-24-2019, 02:03 PM

I researched, but could not find the MLB all-time save percentage leaders in listed format ranking from highest career percentage on down. Really curious how Rivera compares on this one particular stat - and if he is statistically significantly superior on this one stat. After all, the #1 job of a closer is to NOT blow the save.

Huge thanks if anyone could post this ranking list.

packs · #20 01-24-2019, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

I researched, but could not find the MLB all-time save percentage leaders in listed format ranking from highest career percentage on down. Really curious how Rivera compares on this one particular stat - and if he is statistically significantly superior on this one stat. After all, the #1 job of a closer is to NOT blow the save.

Huge thanks if anyone could post this ranking list.

I would venture to guess he compares pretty well considering he finished the most games in history, saved the most games in history, and has an 0.70 ERA in 141 of the most important innings a guy can pitch in the post-season.

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