PWCC first 1 sticker, then 2, now 3 different?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Have you not seen the price differential between a 1986 Fleer Michael Jordan in a PSA 8, PSA 9 and PSA 10?

Seems like it would be pretty easy to understand why people spend the money to get a card graded. This isn't rocket science.

Go crack out that same PSA 10 Jordan RC and try to sell it raw. Do you think it would sell for near the price it would as if it were still graded a 10? No way! Same card, nothing changed with the card itself. Now go have the card re-graded, but let's say it comes back a 9 this time. Does it have more value than it did when it was raw? Sure. Does it have the same value it did when it was a 10? No. Once again, same card, nothing's changed. So where is the value? Is it in the card or in the slab/flip? This isn't rocket science.

The only difference is it now has someone else's opinion assigned to it. So did grading the card add value to it, or did it add perceived value to it? If the card changes value based on the flip, then it's only perceived value. There's a difference. As someone in the financial industry, you do understand that, right? This is a hobby where many are building their collections strictly on perceived value. What happens to perceived value over time? I think even a first grader can figure that one out.

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

But isn't your raw collection based on your own perceived value of it?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by calvindog

But isn't your raw collection based on your own perceived value of it?

Of course it is.

I have five 1986 Panini Italian Mike Tyson PSA 9's that I self subbed and have less than $150 in each. Today they sell for over a grand. I will take my perceived value all day long vs. the alternative.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Go crack out that same PSA 10 Jordan RC and try to sell it raw. Do you think it would sell for near the price it would as if it were still graded a 10? No way! Same card, nothing changed with the card itself. Now go have the card re-graded, but let's say it comes back a 9 this time. Does it have more value than it did when it was raw? Sure. Does it have the same value it did when it was a 10? No. Once again, same card, nothing's changed. So where is the value? Is it in the card or in the slab/flip? This isn't rocket science.

The only difference is it now has someone else's opinion assigned to it. So did grading the card add value to it, or did it add perceived value to it? If the card changes value based on the flip, then it's only perceived value. There's a difference. As someone in the financial industry, you do understand that, right? This is a hobby where many are building their collections strictly on perceived value. What happens to perceived value over time? I think even a first grader can figure that one out.

I'll build my collection on real value. You build your collection on perceived value. How about that?

Dude you are out to pasture on this topic. Your disgust for the third party graders has clouded your judgment to a level that can't saved.

It doesn't matter if the card would sell for the same raw after being cracked out. No one is cracking out that card.

You are like the short seller that has been betting against Amazon since it was $200 saying the valuation is unsustainable.

None of us make the rules. The market does and the market has spoken and prices cards based on a grade that is plastered on top of a plastic holder. The Jordan in a PSA 10 has gone from $6,500 in 2009 to in some cases $30,000 today. The Jeter 1993 SP has gone from $6,500 to nearly a $100,000. It is what it is.

Trying to make some philosophical argument as to why people are stupid for wanting someone else to appraise the condition fully knowing that the capital investment can have exponential returns is laughable.

Thanks for the entertainment.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Dude you are out to pasture on this topic. Your disgust for the third party graders has clouded your judgment to a level that can't saved.

It doesn't matter if the card would sell for the same raw after being cracked out. No one is cracking out that card.

You are like the short seller that has been betting against Amazon since it was $200 saying the valuation is unsustainable.

None of us make the rules. The market does and the market has spoken and prices cards based on a grade that is plastered on top of a plastic holder. The Jordan in a PSA 10 has gone from $6,500 in 2009 to in some cases $30,000 today. The Jeter 1993 SP has gone from $6,500 to nearly a $100,000. It is what it is.

Trying to make some philosophical argument as to why people are stupid for wanting someone else to appraise the condition fully knowing that the capital investment can have exponential returns is laughable.

Thanks for the entertainment.

You're head is buried so far up PSA's butt that it's putting pressure on your brain and you can't think straight. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone cares about graded cards. There are many people on this board that crack out graded cards to enjoy raw in their personal collection. Yes, its true no matter how much you want to believe it or not. You're just a puppet of the grading industry. Time to cut the strings, dude.

I'll share a PM I received a few days ago. To protect the user's identity, I'll block out their personal information. In the PM, the buyer asked me to crack out a graded card before mailing it to them. I know that's hard for you to wrap your head around, but a lot of people don't care for graded cards.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation with someone who collects wrestling cards that probably doesn't even have 10 years in this hobby but wants to explain it all to me. No, that's entertainment.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're head is buried so far up PSA's butt that it's putting pressure on your brain and you can't think straight. Not everyone thinks like you. Not everyone cares about graded cards. There are many people on this board that crack out graded cards to enjoy raw in their personal collection. Yes, its true no matter how much you want to believe it or not. You're just a puppet of the grading industry. Time to cut the strings, dude.

I'll share a PM I received a few days ago. To protect the user's identity, I'll block out their personal information. In the PM, the buyer asked me to crack out a graded card before mailing it to them. I know that's hard for you to wrap your head around, but a lot of people don't care for graded cards.

I can't believe I'm having this conversation with someone who collects wrestling cards that probably doesn't even have 10 years in this hobby but wants to explain it all to me. No, that's entertainment.

Actually I have 35 years in the hobby.

What I collect is irrelevant. My wrestling cards have probably on a percentage basis been the best pick during that ten year time frame you mention of anything. Everyone laughed and here we sit ten years later and the top cards from my sets continue to set record highs.

As for being a puppet. I have been called worse things. Either way the route I have chosen to take has paid off in spades.

You on the other hand call people stupid for attempting to increase the value of their cards and actually doing it. Think about that.

[calvindog]

David, a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder doesn't exactly inspire the financial need to keep it in a slab as opposed to a Boston Garter as Leon mentioned. I'm not a fan of PSA but I recognize the value it adds to high end cards (and even some not so high end). At the end of the day I'm a fan of more money compared to less money. Who isn't?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

David, a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder doesn't exactly inspire the financial need to keep it in a slab as opposed to a Boston Garter as Leon mentioned. I'm not a fan of PSA but I recognize the value it adds to high end cards (and even some not so high end). At the end of the day I'm a fan of more money compared to less money. Who isn't?

The Congresswoman to your north (assuming you are at work), apparently. Oops, political comment.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Congresswoman to your north (assuming you are at work), apparently. Oops, political comment.

She's for more money as long as its mine she's taking.

[calvindog]

This card raw is worth less than this card graded. Whether we like it or not, the PSA holder adds value to my card. And by leaving it in the slab I am protecting its value. It may suck that this is the reality of the hobby but it is what it is. Is it worth cracking out, losing half its value, due to a personal agenda? I'd literally be lighting money on fire if I cracked the card out and left it out.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

David, a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder doesn't exactly inspire the financial need to keep it in a slab as opposed to a Boston Garter as Leon mentioned. I'm not a fan of PSA but I recognize the value it adds to high end cards (and even some not so high end). At the end of the day I'm a fan of more money compared to less money. Who isn't?

Jeff, it wasn't a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder, but I'll play along with you. Even if it were, why would one grade a 1968 Yaz in Ex condition? I don't have the answer, but it happens all the time. You say grading adds value, so where is the added value in this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-...kAAOSwpvRcgYu9

Couldn't I buy the same card raw in the same condition for about the same price? I know you just used a random card as an example, but I see this quite often on eBay where someone had a card graded that really didn't add any value at all and, in some cases, it actually decreases the value by having it graded.

Of course I'm a fan of more money. But my point is that it's only perceived value to the collector. If one is buying raw cards to have graded and re-selling them for several times what they paid, then great for them. I really think that's awesome! My comments are really for the collectors (or investors) putting a lot of faith in perceived value.

[vintagetoppsguy]

LOL at Peter's last comment.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Jeff, it wasn't a 1968 Yaz card in a PSA 5 holder, but I'll play along with you. Even if it were, why would one grade a 1968 Yaz in Ex condition? I don't have the answer, but it happens all the time. You say grading adds value, so where is the added value in this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1968-Topps-...kAAOSwpvRcgYu9

Couldn't I buy the same card raw in the same condition for about the same price? I know you just used a random card as an example, but I see this quite often on eBay where someone had a card graded that really didn't add any value at all and, in some cases, it actually decreases the value by having it graded.

Of course I'm a fan of more money. But my point is that it's only perceived value to the collector. If one is buying raw cards to have graded and re-selling them for several times what they paid, then great for them. I really think that's awesome! My comments are really for the collectors (or investors) putting a lot of faith in perceived value.

Sometimes people slab cards worth less than the slabbing process just to protect the card or provide uniformity in their collection.

And slabbed cards are a legit market unto itself at this point. My Plow's Cobb above could not be purchased for the same price if it was raw. No chance. Can it go up in value? Sure. Can it go down? Sure. But all things being equal, the card will always be worth more in that PSA slab than out of it. There's no debate here on that issue.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

You on the other hand call people stupid for attempting to increase the value of their cards and actually doing it. Think about that.

Show me where I called anyone stupid? Now you're just making things up...kind of like wrestling is made up. Ooops, I hope I didn't spoil that for you.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Show me where I called anyone stupid? Now you're just making things up...kind of like wrestling is made up. Ooops, I hope I didn't spoil that for you.

I would classify these comments as calling someone stupid.



But you're trying to rationalize it. You can't. I'm the same way with grading. For the life of me, I don't understand why someone cares about what someone else thinks about their card. It blows my mind. What makes someone submit a card to be graded? Are they really that ignorant of hobby standards that they can't look at a card and judge the condition for themselves that they need a 3rd party to do it for them? Do these same people seek advice about other things too? Do these same people need reassurance to tell them how pretty their wife is? How fine their home is? How nice their car is? If not, then why do they need someone to tell them the condition of their card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I would classify these comments as calling someone stupid.

I didn't use the word stupid. I did say ignorant, but ignorant is a lack of knowledge. It was appropriate to my example (someone unfamiliar with hobby standards). Stupid is a lack of intelligence. I didn't say or infer that.

Nice try though.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Actually I have 35 years in the hobby.

What I collect is irrelevant. My wrestling cards have probably on a percentage basis been the best pick during that ten year time frame you mention of anything. Everyone laughed and here we sit ten years later and the top cards from my sets continue to set record highs.

As for being a puppet. I have been called worse things. Either way the route I have chosen to take has paid off in spades.

You on the other hand call people stupid for attempting to increase the value of their cards and actually doing it. Think about that.

Actually I have 66 years in the hobby.

I had the pleasure of watching "The Great Malenko" live as a teenager in the Tampa Bay area. You probably don't even know who this is?

gordonsolie0001.jpg

And you think your credentials are impeckable.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Actually I have 66 years in the hobby.

I had the pleasure of watching "The Great Malenko" live as a teenager in the Tampa Bay area. You probably don't even know who this is?

Attachment 351623

And you think your credentials are impeckable.

Nice to see The Dean Gordon Solie make an appearance!

I am from Orlando and grew up watching Championship Wrestling from Florida.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Actually I have 66 years in the hobby.

I had the pleasure of watching "The Great Malenko" live as a teenager in the Tampa Bay area. You probably don't even know who this is?

Attachment 351623

And you think your credentials are impeckable.

Just saw this on Twitter.

Thought you might like it.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Just saw this on Twitter.

Thought you might like it.

Gordon’s wrestling interviews were an art form that attempted to legitimize entertainment that pretended to be a real “sport”.

If you knew the script, betting on wrestling was not only a body slam, but a slam dunk as well.