Please show your PRE-American Tobacco Company cigarette pack(s)

[jerrys]

Not to go beyond the scope of this thread but it is ironic that Buck Duke, who started the insert card fad to increase demand of the evil weed due to his favored discount advantage for his assisting James Bobsack to perfect the cigarette-rolling machine, ended this highly expensive component of production by stopping competition. This was done by incorporating with the main five tobacco companies.

My record: ATC was formed the end of January 1890. Would your March 1890 DH pack be included as a card carrier? Merger date incorrect? Could it be Goodwin just used up the supply of old DH packs for economic reasons?

I do not know what this sentence means: "The date aligns with my expectations for this 3rd style of Creole pack." I will send you an enlarged image of the Creole tax stamp when I next use the scanner.

The reference card shown just refers to an arbitrary representative card of that series for that pack. The Creole could have been the actress series N330. The N333 is from a reference file - not mine.

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Your great book on Goodwin's Old Judge Cards is most complete. An added benefit to the reader would have been a reference to information on the manufacture and distribution of OJ cards and packs, if in existence.

[oldjudge]

Hi Jerry! I may not be understanding your question, but in the book we do discuss the manufacturing process for the cards. We also talk briefly about the evolution from cigarette girls making cigarettes to machine made cigarettes and the reason for card inclusion in packs. However, if we ever do an update (unlikely) we will probably expand on this discussion.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by jerrys

Not to go beyond the scope of this thread but it is ironic that Buck Duke, who started the insert card fad to increase demand of the evil weed due to his favored discount advantage for his assisting James Bobsack to perfect the cigarette-rolling machine, ended this highly expensive component of production by stopping competition. This was done by incorporating with the main five tobacco companies.

My record: ATC was formed the end of January 1890. Would your March 1890 DH pack be included as a card carrier? Merger date incorrect? Could it be Goodwin just used up the supply of old DH packs for economic reasons?

I do not know what this sentence means: "The date aligns with my expectations for this 3rd style of Creole pack." I will send you an enlarged image of the Creole tax stamp when I next use the scanner.

The reference card shown just refers to an arbitrary representative card of that series for that pack. The Creole could have been the actress series N330. The N333 is from a reference file - not mine.

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Your great book on Goodwin's Old Judge Cards is most complete. An added benefit to the reader would have been a reference to information on the manufacture and distribution of OJ cards and packs, if in existence.

As an aside, you didn't directly ask about this but I think it of interest to post here . . . Duke wasn't the first to introduce the slide and shell box nor was he the first to introduce inserts/cards. Thomas Hall introduced the slide and shell box way back in 1876 and appears to have begun inserting cards in 1877 or 1878. There are some fantastic threads on this over on the Non-Sport forum, have a look. Hall's Between the Acts cards would continue to be inserted in various forms (many variations, large set) all the way until Thomas Hall joined the ATC in 1895. Duke however is responsible for making the slide and shell popular and all others soon followed. Duke took the plunge and transitioned from paper packs to slide and shell for Cameo cigarettes in May of 1886 however it is unclear when inserts were added. Soon after Duke transitioned the Cameo brand of cigarettes to slide and shell box they moved onto their other brands while in parallel the competition was doing the same. The dates for when cards were inserted into these slide and shell boxes are unknown to me although I'm certain Goodwin made a near immediate jump to both introducing slide and shell and card inserts (Dec. 1886).

ATC merger was popular gossip and reported on through-out 1889 and early 1890 but didn't become official until March of 1890. The first report I can find of discontinuing inserts was by Kimball on March 7th, 1890. A&G continued issuing new card sets that were already in process (Quadrupeds, Wild Animals of the World, etc.). Some cards began being distributed in multiple brands (for example both Goodwin and A&G would issue wild animals of the world). It took awhile for card production to cease.

I commented earlier that I've never seen a Dogs Head pack post ATC merger (post March 1890), but I'm sure they exist. I know Dogs Head (& Old Judge) became popular exports but sales of cigarettes in the US slowed drastically for these old Goodwin brands. If you find a post ATC merger Goodwin pack, it will likely be an export pack (like the one Ted posted).

There are three different styles of Creole cigarette pack for which yours is #3. N321 cards have been found saved in that style pack and it was suspected that the cards and pack date to late 1888. All three issues, N321, N333, & N338-1, are late 1888 issues. I'm less certain on timing of N338-2.

I'm pretty sure there is no dated overprint on Ted's Kimball pack. There was a nice find of High Grade packs that are spread though-out the hobby but they lack dated overprints.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by jerrys

Ted did not convert the Kimball’s tax stamp information into readable text. I cannot make it out.

Sorry Jerry.....I was in a hurry when I included that earlier post here. Therefore...…..


W. S. KIMBALL Company (Rochester, NY)

Stamp:

Manf, 417, 28th District,
NEW YORK


.




No stamp

.





I included my ATC CAMEO pack to illustrate Joe G's excellent information (I don't have an insert card to display with it).

Stamp:

Factory, No. 42
4th District, N.C.
June 1, '93

. .




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[oldjudge]

Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.

Yes, this is a bit of a mystery. I'm hopeful that a source will surface that helps explain this. It is possible Goodwin made the transition to slide and shell box before the date provided in Tobacco Journal article which was written in early 1890. Perhaps N167s were given away at point of sale in advance of the slide and shell or maybe they were distributed in Dec. 1886 in a slide and shell box that was supposed to be available earlier . . . a mystery for now.

[oldjudge]

So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not stating N167s are tied with Spotted Ties but here is what we can state factually:

Period literature (Feb. 21st, 1890 Tobacco Journal) states Goodwin made transition from paper pack to slide and shell box in Dec. 1886.



The rest is speculation. The Tobacco Journal could be in error but I tend to believe it.

Paper packs would not provide a good source for cards, they would be creased and rounded based on how the cigarettes were packaged.

N167 cards could have been distributed before the transition to slide and shell box but it likely would not have been as a cigarette pack insert. They could have been distributed at point of sale, perhaps a handful per case.

Goodwin may have planned to have the boxes available before Dec. 1886 and had the cards printed at an earlier date and then held them until the Whiting Co. delivered first boxes in Dec. 1886. The Whiting Box Co. was very busy trying to fill orders for Duke and the rest, this was a booming business.

Or maybe N167 had a very short run as did Spotted Ties/script cards leading up to early 1887.

It's also not unheard of for these early cards to be based on one timeframe but be issued at a later date. Allen & Ginter, for example, debuted the N29 cards in August of 1889 showing Getzien with Detroit (a team that had disbanded at close of 1888 season). Goodwin would issue cards of players after they retired (Mathews) or even passed (Ferguson and McKinnon - GQ was likely issued after his death).

Lots of possibilities, I am still hopeful that more details will surface that help us piece the puzzle together.

[oldjudge]

That's a great article--thanks Joe!