Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's the problem. Think David Hall and Wagner. Then you litigate, I guess.

That one IMO would be a turkey shoot. If it is not enough the person who trimmed the card admitted such, which contributed to him being sentenced to prison, you have (i) existent before and after photos of the card, and (ii) physical characteristics of the borders than when enlarged would be substantially identical to countless cards slabbed "A".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That one would be a turkey shoot. If it is not enough the person who trimmed the card admitted such, which contributed to him being sentenced to prison, you have (i) existent before and after photos of the card, and (ii) physical characteristics of the borders than when enlarged would be substantially identical to countless cards slabbed "A".

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

So if someone has uncut N, T, E and/or R sheets that if cut could produce "10s" of vintage superstars, is because of that a person a multi-millionaire? I'm doubtful.

I don't follow, sorry. My point, I think, is that the bigger problem with the card is not that it's trimmed but that it's sheet cut to begin with so never could have graded properly. Everyone focuses on the trimming though.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't follow, sorry. My point, I think, is that the bigger problem with the card is not that it's trimmed but that it's sheet cut to begin with so never could have graded properly. Everyone focuses on the trimming though.

It was post-issue sheet cut, believed to be in the 1980's. There are other known cards cut from that same sheet with similar cut and coloration. Therefore to some because it was recently sheet cut, the fact that the initial cutting did not do it perfectly means that a subsequent cutting should not cause an "A" grade. So by that line of reasoning, sheet-cut cards can potentially receive unqualified "10" grades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

It was post-issue sheet cut, believed to be in the 1980's. There are other known cards cut from that same sheet with similar cut and coloration. Therefore to some because it was recently sheet cut, the fact that the initial cutting did not do it perfectly means that a subsequent cutting should not cause an "A" grade. So by that line of reasoning, sheet-cut cards can potentially receive unqualified "10" grades.

If you walked into PSA with a card and said this was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, they wouldn't grade it, would they? I thought Beckett caught lots of grief for doing that for certain sheet cutters who couldn't get the cards past PSA.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you walked into PSA with a card and said this was cut from a sheet in the 1980s, they wouldn't grade it, would they?

To my knowledge they would not. Welcome to the absurdity.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What I don't get is that it already was sheet cut, right? It was never issued in a pack. So even if Mastro didn't trim it it's still an AUTH? PS I've seen those Alan Ray photos I thought they were pretty grainy but maybe they can be enhanced, but again, if it's sheet cut already..

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by steve B

I've never liked the "sheet cut " term. All individual cards are cut from sheets.

Perhaps "Post-Factory Cut" would be more accurate, "Sheet Cut" has been the industry standard term for cards cut from a sheet outside of the factory for many, many years now though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Regardless of the term used, and i agree with both of you, I don't know why this doesn't seem to have been more a focal point of discussion concerning the Wagner card. If I am correct on my facts, the card was never better than an AUTH.

[steve B]

I think it's easier for people to get their heads around it being a simple trim, than the odd distinction of having been cut twice after leaving the factory.
There may also be a small bit of selective ignoring. I don't like to consider whether it was a complete sheet, or only a portion, and what was lost in the cutting. I do sometimes, but I can see someone else simply refusing the concept to avoid considering it.

I do hope that someone somewhere along the line took a picture of the uncut sheet/fragment and that it will someday turn up.
Alternately, learning that it was a scrap sheet brought home or found in ALCs trash and cut by some kid at the time would be nice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I think it's easier for people to get their heads around it being a simple trim, than the odd distinction of having been cut twice after leaving the factory.
There may also be a small bit of selective ignoring. I don't like to consider whether it was a complete sheet, or only a portion, and what was lost in the cutting. I do sometimes, but I can see someone else simply refusing the concept to avoid considering it.

I do hope that someone somewhere along the line took a picture of the uncut sheet/fragment and that it will someday turn up.
Alternately, learning that it was a scrap sheet brought home or found in ALCs trash and cut by some kid at the time would be nice.

I thought we knew a Plank was cut from the same sheet which implied to me there was a picture of it or at least an eyewitness account? Or did Alan Ray just have the Plank as well as the Wagner so it's an assumption?

[tschock]

"If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:... "

Isn't this really their 'out' here? The card could easily be deemed authentic (or not), but PSA still could 'conclude' it 'merits' the grade given, right?

[drcy]

Originally Posted by tschock

"If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails PSA’s authenticity standards, PSA will either:... "

Isn't this really their 'out' here? The card could easily be deemed authentic (or not), but PSA still could 'conclude' it 'merits' the grade given, right?

I don't think that's what the merit means, even by PSA's definition