Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

jchcollins · #1 05-15-2019, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I will add, and this is from the perspective of a person who attended card shows in the late 60s and early 70s, that I have no recollection of seeing anywhere close to the number of high grade tobacco cards one sees at current shows.

This, all day long. They weren't that way at shows in the mid-to late 80's either. And he's not the only one who said it. Do the math...

steve B · #2 05-15-2019, 08:14 PM

While I have to take the experiences of longtime dealers into account, I just can't totally buy that there were so few high grade older cards back then. I've been into things since .. figure 78, since that's when I went to my first show.
Very high grade prewar cards weren't common then, but to say they're common now is a bit of a stretch.

Looking at the pop reports, which may be slightly high
For T206
PSA 8 8+ 9 10
2394 61 278 13

Qualifiers 8 129
9 40

Total graded - about 237,000
2915 is a bit over 1% (1.22)

SGC. (Incomplete as the pop report doesn't list 350-460 piedmonts, or at least didn't find them in the search - Yeah, it's really bad. )

8 167
8.5 43
9 28

Didn't do a total. It would have taken way too long.

That's not really all that many, especially considering how many out there that are mid grade or lower just aren't graded.

What is probably happening is that those high grade cards get more attention, and probably are for sale more often. (I'm amazed how often you guys move cards along, many of mine have been with me for 30 + years)

That doesn't mean that the high grade ones aren't altered, but the number of them out there is actually pretty reasonable.
The best I graded myself is a 7, and that came from a collection that arrived at the dealers in a box, like nearly all of them did in the early 80's. I had it in a sheet, then a screwdown, and eventually a toploader and penny sleeve.

benjulmag · #3 05-15-2019, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

The best I graded myself is a 7, and that came from a collection that arrived at the dealers in a box, like nearly all of them did in the early 80's. I had it in a sheet, then a screwdown, and eventually a toploader and penny sleeve.

My concern about the number of high-grade cards is not centered around 7's. It is centered around 8's - 10's. Even if a person in 1909 saw a card he/she really liked and wanted to preserve it, I would think simply taking it out of the cigarette box and transporting it to some storage box would cause enough damage to prevent it from being a true 9. And that assumes during the ensuing 100+ years no one took the card out of the box and handled it. As for 10's, no disrespect intended, but are you kidding?

Today when vintage packs are opened and cards are pulled, do you notice the care that is taken to do that? And we are to believe such care took place a century ago when cards had NO value? Don't take my word for it. Blow up the borders of vintage 10's. When I do I see shavings or uneven borders. And I'll wager that if there a difference between the chemical composition of untrimmed borders exposed to the elements for 100+ years and trimmed borders exposed to the elements for only a few years, which difference can be revealed by advanced forensic testing, all T206 10's would be shown to be altered.

I remember in the 1990's a respected old-time dealer displayed on his table altered cards, identified as such. To my eyes, they looked totally natural. That dealer displayed them to portend the future of the hobby. I believe he hit the nail on the head.

Kenny Cole · #4 05-15-2019, 11:12 PM

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

I have been around shows since the mid-1970s. I frequented the local card shops around Temple City (just south of LA) religiously from about 1976-1979 when I went to college. There were three shops close to me. Back then they all had early cards. My brother and I were into the history of baseball and quickly got into the early cards, T206s, Goudeys, E-cards, the occasional N 172, etc. At that time, of course, nothing was graded. This is anecdotal, but I don't recall ever seeing even one card as sharp as those that are, at least in a relative sense, fairly prevalent now. Had I seen such a card, I would have bought it if I could afford it. I have none. Nor did I ever find such a card that I couldn't afford as a kid. My cards from back then are 2s to maybe, if I was lucky, a 5. Not a 7, 8, 9 or 10. They didn't exist back then. They do now. Why is that?

barrysloate · #5 05-16-2019, 04:44 AM

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

ullmandds · #6 05-16-2019, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

Additionally... I recall articles talking about kids looking for such cards on the ground...which would not contribute to keeping cards in tip top shape.

jchcollins · #7 05-16-2019, 07:01 AM

Certainly since no high-grade prewar was prevalent in the 1970's or earlier - there have been finds and additional attics cleaned out which yielded additional cards. But enough to stock what we are seeing now and all or at least a lot of them in really high grade? I just don't buy it.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 05-16-2019, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

Republicaninmass · #9 05-16-2019, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

Mostly searching their OWN records with serial numbered cards yielded this Information. It's a matter of time before this really grows legs, exposing the shill bidders/consignors, submitters, etc

Peter_Spaeth · #10 05-16-2019, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Mostly searching their OWN records with serial numbered cards yielded this Information. It's a matter of time before this really grows legs, exposing the shill bidders/consignors, submitters, etc

I don't know how the average collector is going to determine if a non-serial numbered card he bought from PWCC is bad or not. Most of them are not going to be obvious to the average or even trained eye, without before and after photos. Hell, they got past a TPG, right?

It might be somewhat easier on the numbered ones if you're lucky enough to find its history, but even that that's not easy.

frankbmd · #11 05-16-2019, 08:42 AM

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

Peter_Spaeth · #12 05-16-2019, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

So nobody on 54 could be select or elite? I guess I buy that.

pokerplyr80 · #13 05-23-2019, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

I am not an elite consignor as far as I'm aware. I had a card receive a certified high end designation under the old system that I never altered and showed no obvious signs of alteration or conservation.

steve B · #14 05-16-2019, 09:14 AM

That also need to be taken in context with the pop report numbers. only about 1% of what's been graded are 8s and up. And that's just among the ones that have been graded. If you figure there's still 3x as many ungraded, and that those are even more likely to be in low grade since they aren't really worth grading, (I never understood grading a card that's in bad shape, unless it has some other qualities that make it more valuable) And that the surviving cards are maybe 10% of what was made, the number with high grades just aren't really all that many.

I never asked, but I believe the only thing keeping the 7 I graded from being higher is the centering. I've had a few others done that I had big hopes for, that had small flaws I didn't see. (They still generally di pretty well. )

I don't doubt that some of the cards graded 8 and up are altered, but I do know that there are some cards that come pretty close that certainly aren't. And many of them got no special treatment or handling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

My concern about the number of high-grade cards is not centered around 7's. It is centered around 8's - 10's. Even if a person in 1909 saw a card he/she really liked and wanted to preserve it, I would think simply taking it out of the cigarette box and transporting it to some storage box would cause enough damage to prevent it from being a true 9. And that assumes during the ensuing 100+ years no one took the card out of the box and handled it. As for 10's, no disrespect intended, but are you kidding?

Today when vintage packs are opened and cards are pulled, do you notice the care that is taken to do that? And we are to believe such care took place a century ago when cards had NO value? Don't take my word for it. Blow up the borders of vintage 10's. When I do I see shavings or uneven borders. And I'll wager that if there a difference between the chemical composition of untrimmed borders exposed to the elements for 100+ years and trimmed borders exposed to the elements for only a few years, which difference can be revealed by advanced forensic testing, all T206 10's would be shown to be altered.

I remember in the 1990's a respected old-time dealer displayed on his table altered cards, identified as such. To my eyes, they looked totally natural. That dealer displayed them to portend the future of the hobby. I believe he hit the nail on the head.

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