Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Kenny Cole]

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

I have been around shows since the mid-1970s. I frequented the local card shops around Temple City (just south of LA) religiously from about 1976-1979 when I went to college. There were three shops close to me. Back then they all had early cards. My brother and I were into the history of baseball and quickly got into the early cards, T206s, Goudeys, E-cards, the occasional N 172, etc. At that time, of course, nothing was graded. This is anecdotal, but I don't recall ever seeing even one card as sharp as those that are, at least in a relative sense, fairly prevalent now. Had I seen such a card, I would have bought it if I could afford it. I have none. Nor did I ever find such a card that I couldn't afford as a kid. My cards from back then are 2s to maybe, if I was lucky, a 5. Not a 7, 8, 9 or 10. They didn't exist back then. They do now. Why is that?

[barrysloate]

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't think kids in 1909 were looking to preserve cigarette cards in mint condition for posterity. That wasn't the mindset at all. They were handled and played with. Some were put away in decent shape, of course, but not pristine.

There are outliers, like the Southern find or Black Swamp find, but these were kids living in a rough and tumble age. Handling cigarette cards with white gloves was for sissies.

Additionally... I recall articles talking about kids looking for such cards on the ground...which would not contribute to keeping cards in tip top shape.

[jchcollins]

Certainly since no high-grade prewar was prevalent in the 1970's or earlier - there have been finds and additional attics cleaned out which yielded additional cards. But enough to stock what we are seeing now and all or at least a lot of them in really high grade? I just don't buy it.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Certainly since no high-grade prewar was prevalent in the 1970's or earlier - there have been finds and additional attics cleaned out which yielded additional cards. But enough to stock what we are seeing now and all or at least a lot of them in really high grade? I just don't buy it.

AND THIS MY FRIENDS is the bottom line. I don't buy it for a minute John. I never really did, but with the shear amount of trimmed cards coming to light, it is a FACT. Anyone that doesn't believe it just needs to put 2 and 2 together. Pretty easy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

AND THIS MY FRIENDS is the bottom line. I don't buy it for a minute John. I never really did, but with the shear amount of trimmed cards coming to light, it is a FACT. Anyone that doesn't believe it just needs to put 2 and 2 together. Pretty easy.

I assume that was just a typo but LMAO at the "shear" amount of trimmed cards.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I assume that was just a typo but LMAO at the "shear" amount of trimmed cards.

sheerly you jest

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I assume that was just a typo but LMAO at the "shear" amount of trimmed cards.

Man, when you're writing fast and furious, and never proof read dumb sh** is gonna happen. AND I had Shear on my mind as in people are taking a shearing like a lamb or like a card. It's a Complete shearing I tell ya. 10 years of "Collage" down the drain with 1 post

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Nah. Everything's good and on the up and up. Just ask some of the pundits here. Or ask PWCC. Assuming that there were ever any shenanigans going on, with that auction, they have now solemnly vowed to fix it. If those high grade cards (with the stickers) weren't on the up and up and they agree (which I am sure will often occur), they're going to take care of it. Seriously. LOL.

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, it's easy to offer a refund, but there's an element of disingenuousness or least insufficiency to it when you have access to records showing exactly which cards you've sold over the years were consigned to you by people you say you will no longer do business with because they're suspect, but you don't identify the cards and the burden is on the owner to figure out if they have an altered card or not.

Mostly searching their OWN records with serial numbered cards yielded this Information. It's a matter of time before this really grows legs, exposing the shill bidders/consignors, submitters, etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Mostly searching their OWN records with serial numbered cards yielded this Information. It's a matter of time before this really grows legs, exposing the shill bidders/consignors, submitters, etc

I don't know how the average collector is going to determine if a non-serial numbered card he bought from PWCC is bad or not. Most of them are not going to be obvious to the average or even trained eye, without before and after photos. Hell, they got past a TPG, right?

It might be somewhat easier on the numbered ones if you're lucky enough to find its history, but even that that's not easy.

[frankbmd]

Inmate Abbott: “Hey Lou, what are you in for?

Inmate Costello: “Restoring cardboard, Bud”

Bud: “You work for Waste Management?”

Lou: “Naw, a smaller outfit up in Oregon.”

Bud: “Oh, and what does the outfit do with the cardboard?”

Lou: “They sell it......... to investors.”

Bud: “What type of idiot invests in cardboard?”

Lou: “You’ld be surprised. Big money involved.”

Bud: “Where does the cardboard come from that you restore?”

Lou: “I have to buy it, sometimes from the outfit in Oregon.”

Bud: “And they buy it back?”

Lou: “No, Bud, they sell it.”

Bud: “To you?”

Lou: “No, to the investors”

Bud: “They ship the restored cardboard to the investors then.”

Lou: “Wrong again, Bud, they put it in a vault.”

Bud: “Then how do they protect the restored cardboard in the vault?”

Lou: “They keep it in small plastic cases.”

Bud: “So how did you get paid?”

Lou: “Bud, I cut the cardboard in exchange for a cut of the resale profit.”

Bud: “Fair enough, sort of an eye for an eye type deal. So why are you in jail? Is cutting cardboard illegal?

Lou: “It depends, Bud. The outfit in Oregon stated in court that cutting to conserve was okay, but that cutting to alter was not.”

Bud: “But you said you were in for restoring cardboard. Isn’t that conservation?

Lou: “Go online and look at the evidence: one man’s conservation is another man’s alteration. There is not a clear cut difference, so to speak.”

Bud: “Gee, that’s terrible, Lou.”

Lou: “Yeah, 20 years is a stiff sentence for altering cardboard. By the way, Bud, what are you in for?

Bud: “Certifying cardboard and putting it in plastic cases.”

—————- to be continued ————

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thanks for brightening my morning, Frank.

As I read it, I imagined the voices of Abbott and Costello.

[Goudey77]

Brent speaks on this matter

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Brent speaks on this matter

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4

Do you have a bat phone connection to Brent in your study or is he just on speed dial?

[barrysloate]

I listened to the first ten minutes of Brent's youtube video. Oh my oh my.

He differentiates alteration, which is an obvious attempt to improve a card, from conservation, which is a way to enhance a card without any of the work being detected. But what about the card doctors who alter cards with such skill that even the TPG's can't catch it? Doesn't that make it impossible to distinguish whether a card has been altered or conserved?

After careful thought I think I can sum up this new approach in just two words: Oy gevalt.

[frankbmd]

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

So nobody on 54 could be select or elite? I guess I buy that.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So nobody on 54 could be select or elite? I guess I buy that.

I also would be curious about this. I'd guess the majority of cards deserving of stickers were doctored...and following the stickers is a roadmap to many doctored cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I also would be curious about this. I'd guess the majority of cards deserving of stickers were doctored...and following the stickers is a roadmap to many doctored cards.

But according to PWCC's post on Blowout, Brent has no idea whose cards they are when he assigns the stickers. Although someone traced one or more submissions and showed a high percentage of cards from the same submission getting stickered. Who knows.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But according to PWCC's post on Blowout, Brent has no idea whose cards they are when he assigns the stickers. Although someone traced one or more submissions and showed a high percentage of cards from the same submission getting stickered. Who knows.

I really don't believe anything brent could possibly say at this time.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But according to PWCC's post on Blowout, Brent has no idea whose cards they are when he assigns the stickers. Although someone traced one or more submissions and showed a high percentage of cards from the same submission getting stickered. Who knows.

A blind fold could be employed to assure the randomness of the sticker selection process reminiscent of a game many of us played as kids.

Donkey.jpeg

Or is the sticker selection process dependent on the name of the "donkey"?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

I am not an elite consignor as far as I'm aware. I had a card receive a certified high end designation under the old system that I never altered and showed no obvious signs of alteration or conservation.