Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I assume that was just a typo but LMAO at the "shear" amount of trimmed cards.

sheerly you jest

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

sheerly you jest

I was almost too sheepish to post but figured Chuck would take it the right way. After all it is about the wool being pulled over our eyes.

[toppcat]

So why is PSA grading trimmed cards and assigning numerical grades then?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toppcat

So why is PSA grading trimmed cards and assigning numerical grades then?

IMO because the card doctors are better at trimming than PSA is at detecting particularly under the constraints PSA likely imposes on its graders in terms of equipment and time.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO because the card doctors are better at trimming than PSA is at detecting particularly under the constraints PSA likely imposes on its graders in terms of equipment and time.

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

[Frank A]

The true answer is that a few greedy pigs would ruin the whole hobby for MONEY. You have people who are trimming, doctoring, restoring(joke) and conserving and whatever else that makes the card a FAKE. Then comes the unethical dealers who don't give a shit who they screw because it's all about money anyway. They are a total disgrace to the hobby and should be shunned as such. But worst of all are the so called third party graders who are giving number grades to this crap. When these so called graders started in this hobby it was for the betterment of the hobby, separating good from bad and grading to keep everything equal. HAA! They have failed miserably and really don't care. They blame everyone but themselves. Their story is they can only find so many good graders. BULLSHIT. They don't have any good graders if this CRAP is getting by them. I hope to hell all of the company's involved in this crap go down. They are taking money under false pretenses and need to go away.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

[benjulmag]

Post 244 in this thread lists PSA's warranty reserves as of 6/30/18 to be $862K.

Suppose hypothetically there is a cost efficient forensic method available that can CONCLUSIVELY establish that a card has been altered? For example, maybe there is a way to show untrimmed borders exposed to the elements have different physical characteristics than recently trimmed borders. Or that a worked-on corner has a different paper density than an unworked-on corner. Or perhaps the bringing out of a residue crease line from a spooned-out crease. What do you think PSA's potential warranty exposure could be?

I get it that the way the warranty reads PSA must agree with the finding. But it would seem to me that if the finding is based on scientific fact, I don't see how legally PSA could ultimately avoid paying on the warranty. Based on the potentially staggering number of high grade vintage cards that could be required to be materially downgraded, it would seem to me that the warranty reserve is a fraction of what could be needed.

It intrigues me how PSA seems to be merrily going along continuing to give these vintage cards such high grades while, to use Peter's phrase, there appears to be this ticking time bomb. Can they really be so confident that the day will not come when such forensic testing becomes the norm and the bottom falls out? Is it possible they really do believe that all these high grade vintage cards are in fact unaltered? If I was running the company, based on what I believe to be the case of alteration being the rule not the exception for these cards, I would be very worried about the long-term financial implications of their current business model.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, the card at the focus of the restored/conserved/altered discussion, the 52T Mantle from PWCC, apparently has not been paid for.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Suppose hypothetically there is a cost efficient forensic method available that can CONCLUSIVELY establish that a card has been altered? For example, maybe there is a way to show untrimmed borders exposed to the elements have different physical characteristics than recently trimmed borders. Or that a worked-on corner has a different paper density than an unworked-on corner. Or perhaps the bringing out of a residue crease line from a spooned-out crease.

For the first two, the answer is that that technology already exists, and has for a long time.
A 40X magnifier and some knowledge will usually cover them easily. The 40X magnifer is <$10. My first one cost 7 at a antique shop that sells supplies, my next few were about 2 each in a lot on ebay. (5 for 10?) 10 for 20? I don't remember. )
The knowledge is a bit harder to come by, but it's out there.

I'm not sure about a spooned out crease. To my knowledge I don't own any cards with that. It should be detectable.

I believe that in theory it should be possible to trim a card so that almost can't be detected. Almost. It would take some fairly involved equipment, but nothing that isn't readily available.

Some modern cards will be really hard. Some of the Topps Gypsy Queen base cards are a combination of die cut and knife cut. Different edges have different qualities right out of the pack.