Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If PSA can't detect ninety-something basketball cards that were trimmed (and those are just the ones that were confirmed), what is the purpose of grading? Oh, yeah, I remember: to add value. They're definitely adding value allright.

Ninety-something cards. SMH. And y'all believe everything is on the up and up at PSA?

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

[jchcollins]

One thing the grading companies could do to help in terms of the "provenance" argument is to start keeping / making available more detailed notes, at least on cards over a certain value. When was the card graded? Was it a raw submit or a crossover? How many times has it been reholdered? At least for the super high-end pieces, graders notes would be a lot more transparent too. What were the overall impressions of the card? Why were the corners a 5 and not a 6? Why did the card get a .5 bump? What is the graders interpretation of centering in comparison to the standard?

All of this would give tremendous more insight into the process. And the position of the TPG's as long as there have been TPG's (with the noted exception of Beckett doing sub-grades, which they no longer do on vintage) is that well, this is our opinion - but we are only going to give you a number and not tell you why this is our opinion. Which of course leads to frustration and hot heads later when a card that looks like a 5 all day long is a 3, and when a card that looks otherwise like a 7 is a 5, and the other way around when a card that looks like a 4 somehow got a 6. I guess the grading companies think that this would open them up to liability - in the inevitable case that the graders notes for a particular card were then later found not to match the stated standards / description of the grade?

The earlier post about provenance rings true though. For expensive works of art offered for sale, there can be a virtual accompanying book on the provenance of the piece. I agree that it certainly would not hurt to start thinking more in those terms for cards. At least for the iconic pieces of the hobby...I'm not sure I want to see detailed provenance for every '89 UD Griffey graded Mint 9...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

One thing the grading companies could do to help in terms of the "provenance" argument is to start keeping / making available more detailed notes, at least on cards over a certain value. When was the card graded? Was it a raw submit or a crossover? How many times has it been reholdered? At least for the super high-end pieces, graders notes would be a lot more transparent too. What were the overall impressions of the card? Why were the corners a 5 and not a 6? Why did the card get a .5 bump? What is the graders interpretation of centering in comparison to the standard?

All of this would give tremendous more insight into the process. And the position of the TPG's as long as there have been TPG's (with the noted exception of Beckett doing sub-grades, which they no longer do on vintage) is that well, this is our opinion - but we are only going to give you a number and not tell you why this is our opinion. Which of course leads to frustration and hot heads later when a card that looks like a 5 all day long is a 3, and when a card that looks otherwise like a 7 is a 5. I guess the grading companies think that this would open them up to liability - in the inevitable case that the graders notes for a particular card were then later found not to match the stated standards / description of the grade?

The earlier post about provenance rings true though. For expensive works of art offered for sale, there can be a virtual accompanying book on the provenance of the piece. I agree that it certainly would not hurt to start thinking more in those terms for cards. At least for the iconic pieces of the hobby...I'm not sure I want to see detailed provenance for every '89 UD Griffey graded Mint 9...

Who's going to pay for the time and resources involved?

[ullmandds]

Personally...I agree with the idea that there should be a higher standard for assuring a card has been unaltered...similar to what David and Scott did with my no name t206 a few years ago.

-min size requirements
-"quality" of edges/corners/color/sheen of trimmed edge vs untrimmed edge.
-fiber appearance/quality where trim was done
-added corners should be easy to detect
-added color should be easy to detect
-provenance

Obviously PSA is unable to detect most alterations...and just because of this it shouldn't be accepted in the hobby that this is ok!

Whether or not the hobby changes to accept alterations/restorations/"conservations" as ok...THERE NEEDS TO BE DISCLOSURE!!!!!!!

WITH NO DISCLOSURE THIS IS NOT OK!!!!!

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who's going to pay for the time and resources involved?

Likely nobody, unless there is a market for it. Which just guessing based on roaring vintage card sales and the small number of folks here and I'm assuming over on Blowout that actually care about this type of thing - probably doesn't really exist. In that case it's just an idea that will never happen and it will still be caveat emptor, up to truly discerning collectors - whether or not they are happy with the card they bought or not.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

Altered cards are going through PSA at an alarming rate. I think we can both agree on that statement.

There has to be an explanation why and there aren't a lot choices. It's either "dirty" graders or, as you said, incompetence. I can't think of any other explanation, can you?

So if they either have graders that are on the take or are just plain incompetent, why are people still submitting to PSA? I truly don't get it.

Why aren’t these altered cards showing up in SGC or BVG/BGS slabs (not saying that some don’t slip by them too, just saying everything that’s been brought to light recently is in a PSA slab)?

[bobbyw8469]

So if they either have graders that are on the take or are just plain incompetent, why are people still submitting to PSA? I truly don't get it.

David...you know exactly why people are submitting to PSA. Or were you speaking rhetorically?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

David...you know exactly why people are submitting to PSA. Or were you speaking rhetorically?

If anyone is fully aware of the situation that is going on, and they choose to submit to PSA, that tells me they're submitting inferior cards and hoping for better grades knowing that SGC (or BGS/BVG) would grade them properly.

Look no further than the Anson card. SGC had the first shot at grading that card. They graded it appropriately (1.5). Then PSA had an equal opportunity to grade that card. It gets a 4? How does a card with that much paper loss get a 4? How does SGC see the paper loss, but PSA does not?

Bobby, forget value, turnaround times or any other factor. If nothing else, don't you want your cards graded accurately?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If anyone is fully aware of the situation that is going on, and they choose to submit to PSA, that tells me they're submitting inferior cards and hoping for better grades knowing that SGC (or BGS/BVG) would grade them properly.

Look no further than the Anson card. SGC had the first shot at grading that card. They graded it appropriately (1.5). Then PSA had an equal opportunity to grade that card. It gets a 4? How does a card with that much paper loss get a 4? How does SGC see the paper loss, but PSA does not?

Bobby, forget value, turnaround times or any other factor. If nothing else, don't you want your cards graded accurately?

Most people who are selling cards want to maximize their sale price, it's as simple as that, and perfectly understandable. The better question might be why does the market value PSA so much more highly but that's a long complex answer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Blowout has featured a lot of BGS modern too.

And yes, it's very disconcerting, and it's been happening for a long time.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

I've been saying for at least a couple years that grading companies need to abandon the turnaround time aspect of things.

Take the time necessary to get it right.

For modern stuff with serial numbers, and other easily identifiable aspects for each card, build a database of images just like the people on the other forum do. Heck, do that for some older cards as well. (In stamps, it's called a census, and it's pretty cool being able to look at a webpage showing every know copy of a particular item. )

When I've sent cards in, they've been done right around on time, I think 20 days. When I sent in a couple stamps, it was 3 months, and cost more.