Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[barrysloate]

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?

It betrays a certain callousness, eh?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

You know the answer to that Barry.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully, that will change.

More than likely it's a registry-driven purchase, I would think.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's a current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.

I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.

[vintagetoppsguy]

A lot of people (especially the old timers) say that grading has hurt the hobby. As much as I hate grading, I disagree with that. But I do think the Registry has hurt the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.

It's ... wait for it .... pretty obviously short. You don't really need to measure it I don't think, the unconscious mind rejects it automatically, the Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" thing.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

Yeah, you're absolutely right...

"Emperor's Clothes" was too mild. "Mindless Sheep" is more in-line with that insane valuation.

Whether it's the Registry, competitive greed, or just plain stupidity, PT Barnum would be beaming!

[JRO$!(]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

https://nationalpurebreddogday.com/t...mbino-and-dot/

I swear I was thinking that in 1923 Babe Ruth's dog Dot was seen evacuating in

the park and the leavings were collected and saved all these years, they

would grade/authenticate and encapsulate and make quite a profit

Scary but very possible...

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Uh, because someone in 2019 would pay 3k?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

How could he not attend?

[Rhotchkiss]

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[judsonhamlin]

There are a couple of questions that I don't think have been answered (and they may not be without subpoenas or warrants)-

-what percentage of submission by the 'doctors' are getting through? Given the profit margins, I would imagine there is an acceptable level of loss (cards rejected by PSA). The answer would, to me, be the distinction between buffoonery/incompetence and outright collusion.
-are these cards being reviewed by the same grader(s) and supervisors? Again, the difference between incompetence and collusion, either with or without the knowledge of corporate officials.
-how were these cards submitted? In person/mail? And what kind of follow-up communication took place about those submissions?

Just some thoughts

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

The guys on blowout just found a new run of certs connected to Moser. Leads me to believe many more are to come.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

The guys on blowout just found a new run of certs connected to Moser. Leads me to believe many more are to come.

And more modern sold through PWCC. And the beat goes on. And the beat goes on.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295880

[jad22]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=65


Geez. That’s quite in jump in price for the Russell rookie.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And more modern sold through PWCC. And the beat goes on. And the beat goes on.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295880

Some of those look to be big enough trims that they should have never cleared even a basic min size check.