New allegations on BO

barrysloate · #1 06-02-2019, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I have had 2 pm''s concerning his post. His name has been put under his id. I think what he said is disgusting, and totally disagree with him, but am not sure taking it down is the right thing to do? It is definitely debatable, though probably better for another thread. If that post is taken down do we then go find the other posts in this forum which are disgusting (to whomever) and delete them too? This is not a black and white situation.

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

slidekellyslide · #2 06-02-2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

They are disgusting and have nothing to do with baseball cards. They are purely political, and politics isn't allowed on this board. My two cents.

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

perezfan · #3 06-02-2019, 02:05 PM

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

Johnny630 · #4 06-02-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Too bad he corrupted this good thread with that crap. A truly unnecessary distraction from an important topic. I wish Leon would clear every post in relation to this idiot, so as not to diminish the topic at hand.

Agree delete

70ToppsFanatic · #5 06-02-2019, 02:10 PM

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

jad22 · #6 06-02-2019, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

At this point I think the best thing all of us "small" stakeholders could do is to directly and individually reach out to the reputable big hobby stakeholders and request that they release a statement and initiate actions, either separately or collaboratively, to restore some confidence to the hobby. Such a statement would most impactful if it said something to the effect that:

-They are taking these allegations seriously and are actively looking into them

-If there are findings that any of the allegations are indeed true they are committed to taking actions in an effort to prevent further occurrences of such instances from being possible

-If they have not already done so, they will begin efforts in earnest to solicit cooperation from the proper legal authorities in hopes of getting their assistance to investigate any of these allegations that, if true, would be violations of federal, state of local fraud statutes or any other laws

-They will do their best to provide timely and regular updates to the hobby stakeholders through future public statements to keep everyone aware of the findings, developments and progress being made

Think of the positive impact that such a collaborative and cooperative joint statement and effort by the major TPGs, big auction houses, etc. would have right now in stabilizing things and coordinating the currently scattered and largely "unofficial" efforts to actually deal with these issues that are clearly very troubling and concerning to the stakeholders in the hobby.

It would also be very helpful if a set of flip-numbers and flip-number ranges of items that MIGHT be affected by these allegations could be assembled and kept up-to-date and made available in a public place so that the vast majority of authenticated collectibles, which are not involved in these allegations, could continue to be bought, sold and otherwise exchanged with confidence by hobby stakeholders who are not involved.

Not as big as this issue but did anyone ever hear PSA, JSA or SGC indicate what actions they were taken to the fake signed cards? They just waited everyone out. Maybe SGC dumping autographs was their response.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-02-2019, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

They aren't even political, they are the thoughts of a disturbed individual. I was hoping people would skip past it without acknowledging it, and a lot of people did for an hour or so. I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum. The Bruces wrote some really disgusting posts here, one of them even wishing to read my obituary, but I think this one is worse.

Agreed. I would punt the post, and the poster, no hesitation. Leon, I think you are overthinking it.

swarmee · #8 06-02-2019, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I also disagree with John that a post like that belongs in the Watercooler section. It has NO place on this forum.

I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

slidekellyslide · #9 06-02-2019, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

I believe I said "if it can stay, it should be in a difference place." I am not a fan of the inflammatory remarks, but since I don't play in the Off topic section, I don't know all the rules/modes there.

There are no politics or religion allowed in the off topic section, and even though I don't consider the comments to be political, a comment like that would definitely lead there.

oldjudge · #10 06-02-2019, 02:15 PM

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot�s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

slidekellyslide · #11 06-02-2019, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot�s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

Kenny Cole · #12 06-02-2019, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

There are reminders all over the internet, a lot of people come here to escape that idiocy.

LOL I'm not so sure how well that's been working lately.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 06-02-2019, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot�s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

Last time I checked the Bill of Rights did not apply to a message board.

RiceBondsMntna2Young · #14 06-02-2019, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Many good Americans died to defend this idiot�s right to speak freely. As repugnant as I find his post I would not take it down. Just let it be a reminder that there are people like this out there.

It was tangentially related to cards. Don�t muzzle him, just ignore or explain why you disagree and move on.

pokerplyr80 · #15 06-02-2019, 02:17 PM

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

swarmee · #16 06-02-2019, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Quoted for the future.

Peter_Spaeth · #17 06-02-2019, 02:30 PM

There is certainly a spectrum of alterations, but I think there is still a clear hobby consensus that taking out creases and using chemicals to clean -- without disclosing -- are not acceptable.
Anyhow it's moot here there is massive evidence many cards were trimmed and recolored.

topcat61 · #18 06-02-2019, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This revelation certainly explains the conservation vs alteration post. Assuming pwcc did buy cards that were sent to Moser, cleaned up, submitted to PSA, then resold on their site is that a crime? This would be also assuming that the cards were not trimmed, recolored, corners rebuilt, t206s rebacked, etc. That the only improvements were removing things from the cards that weren't originally there like stains, scrapbook residue, dirt, or creases and wrinkles.

I don't know the answer, and I do know what many on this board and in our hobby think of this practice. But is cleaning a card and selling without disclosing the improvement a crime?

Hello! Technically, altering an item without telling the person before purchase can be fraud. Both Doug Allen and Bill Mastro were convicted and sentenced for it along with shill bidding. For now, PWCC is alleged to have, as it appears, shill bid only. Unless the FBI or the Oregon AG get involved and conduct a thorough forensic investigation of the cards and computers, PWCC doesn't have to respond to anyone. In fact they could make a case against those accusers if they wanted -and I only say that since it looks like they have 50-400 million reasons to do so. It is up to the individuals who believe they were targeted or swindled to open a complaint with law enforcement. In the meantime, keep collecting evidence, build up a case and bring it to court if it's warranted, but I recommend net54 not bringing up the word -fraud, instead using the word "alleged" will bolster your case if you all decide upon it.

I'm just trying to look out for my fellow collectors best interests on net54 is all.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Kevin Keating responds to shill bidding allegations	Spahn21	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	71	04-06-2016 01:28 PM
Response to Allegations	Archive	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	80	07-28-2012 02:39 PM