CLCT stock down 9.13% today

Republicaninmass · #1 06-04-2019, 09:29 AM

Y'all realize it's doubled since January? 9% down could be just profit taking. Wait the sky is falling

Dpeck100 · #2 06-04-2019, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Y'all realize it's doubled since January? 9% down could be just profit taking. Wait the sky is falling

It may very well be just that.

These guys saying they were going to short it and buy puts definitely did yesterday. The open interest in the January 2020 Puts moved up a lot. Those are very tough options to be playing with.

Scott L. · #3 06-04-2019, 10:16 AM

Do the folks openly wishing for the demise of PSA & CLCT not own any PSA graded cards? Do they care that many people on this board could be materially affected by that outcome? Some of those people whom they would proabbly consider a friend.

Seems like a curious stance to me.

swarmee · #4 06-04-2019, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Do the folks openly wishing for the demise of PSA & CLCT not own any PSA graded cards? Do they care that many people on this board could be materially affected by that outcome? Some of those people whom they would proabbly consider a friend.

Seems like a curious stance to me.

The fraud is so pervasive we should just let it keep happening!

Scott L. · #5 06-04-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

The fraud is so pervasive we should just let it keep happening!

Yeah John that's exactly what I'm saying.

steve B · #6 06-04-2019, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Yeah John that's exactly what I'm saying.

So given that they're either crooked, or totally incompetent you think we should still trust their grades and opinions?
So that people who bought the hype don't lose money....

If they're crooked, yes they should fail.
If they have no idea what they're doing, they need to get a clue quickly.

I have a few PSA cards, a few more SGC, a couple Beckett, I think one GAI, and one Acu-Card, and maybe one or two others.

Acu-Card couldn't spot trimming either....

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-04-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

So given that they're either crooked, or totally incompetent you think we should still trust their grades and opinions?
So that people who bought the hype don't lose money....

If they're crooked, yes they should fail.
If they have no idea what they're doing, they need to get a clue quickly.

I have a few PSA cards, a few more SGC, a couple Beckett, I think one GAI, and one Acu-Card, and maybe one or two others.

Acu-Card couldn't spot trimming either....

Alan Hager indeed.

vintagetoppsguy · #8 06-04-2019, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

So given that they're either crooked, or totally incompetent you think we should still trust their grades and opinions?
So that people who bought the hype don't lose money....

If they're crooked, yes they should fail.
If they have no idea what they're doing, ~~they need to get a clue quickly~~ yes they should fail as well.

I have a few PSA cards, a few more SGC, a couple Beckett, I think one GAI, and one Acu-Card, and maybe one or two others.

I agree with you with one minor correction.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 06-04-2019, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Do the folks openly wishing for the demise of PSA & CLCT not own any PSA graded cards? Do they care that many people on this board could be materially affected by that outcome? Some of those people whom they would proabbly consider a friend.

Seems like a curious stance to me.

Scott puts his finger on exactly why the truth has stayed beneath the surface for so long. Why dealers and major collectors who absolutely knew the extent of this kept quiet. Why it took a few guys on BO, like the kid who pointed out the emperor had no clothes, to open the can of worms.

Scott L. · #10 06-04-2019, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Scott puts his finger on exactly why the truth has stayed beneath the surface for so long. Why dealers and major collectors who absolutely knew the extent of this kept quiet. Why it took a few guys on BO, like the kid who pointed out the emperor had no clothes, to open the can of worms.

Good point Peter, thank you. I agree. Maybe there is no happy medium or fair resolution other than a complete tear down. That was what I was getting at. Is there one?

Peter_Spaeth · #11 06-04-2019, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Good point Peter, thank you. I agree. Maybe there is no happy medium or fair resolution other than a complete tear down. That was what I was getting at. Is there one?

I don't know. I am hoping there is a way to weed out the bad bricks without collapsing the house, but I don't know what it is.

perezfan · #12 06-04-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Do the folks openly wishing for the demise of PSA & CLCT not own any PSA graded cards? Do they care that many people on this board could be materially affected by that outcome? Some of those people whom they would proabbly consider a friend.

Seems like a curious stance to me.

I knew this attitude was widespread, but this is the most clearly I have seen it articulated yet...

We may (and should) take some short-term financial hits, but purely for the betterment of the hobby on a long-term basis. Another TPG or two will undoubtedly emerge when PSA goes down. Or perhaps raw cards will make a comeback. I am hoping for the latter, as I personally feel TPGs corrupt the hobby and their grades do not do not accurately convey a card's true condition or aesthetic appeal.

If they could simply (and correctly) identify a card as altered or original, and let us decide the number grade for ourselves, then I might feel differently. But they cannot even detect obvious alterations at this point. So under this current system... What's the point of having it?

T206Collector · #13 06-04-2019, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Do the folks openly wishing for the demise of PSA & CLCT not own any PSA graded cards? Do they care that many people on this board could be materially affected by that outcome? Some of those people whom they would proabbly consider a friend.

Seems like a curious stance to me.

I am wishing less for the demise of PSA and more for the rise of a TPG that can restore confidence to a market that has been undone by the internet, which ironically fueled the fire for so long. This is the first time in the hobby's history that before and after pics are so prevalent. It is what exposed the signed T206 scandal, and it is what is exposing all of this awful tampering.

Even though I have dozens of autographed pre-war cards, I say shine the light on the fraud. Let's get this mess cleaned up and do things the right way. I don't have a viable solution, but that doesn't mean I want to live with the problem.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 06-04-2019, 11:24 AM

I am sure many people are evaluating whether to sell or reduce. Including me. It's really sad that it's reached this point, but so it goes. Thanks to all the perpetrators, much appreciated. Good for the hobby indeed.

T206Collector · #15 06-04-2019, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am sure many people are evaluating whether to sell or reduce. Including me. It's really sad that it's reached this point, but so it goes. Thanks to all the perpetrators, much appreciated. Good for the hobby indeed.

I've just narrowed my purchasing substantially. I was picking up some unsigned cards for awhile, but want to shift my focus towards raw or low grade items. Going forward, I'll be searching histories of cards online before putting down any meaningful money. But the 20+ years I've been picking up the occasional PSA 5 or SGC 60 T206 card on a whim? Not again until there's a better mousetrap.

aconte · #16 06-04-2019, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I've just narrowed my purchasing substantially. I was picking up some unsigned cards for awhile, but want to shift my focus towards raw or low grade items. Going forward, I'll be searching histories of cards online before putting down any meaningful money. But the 20+ years I've been picking up the occasional PSA 5 or SGC 60 T206 card on a whim? Not again until there's a better mousetrap.

That's where I'm at too now!

Quote:

I am sure many people are evaluating whether to sell or reduce. Including me. It's really sad that it's reached this point, but so it goes. Thanks to all the perpetrators, much appreciated. Good for the hobby indeed.

Aint that the truth. This one really hurt. I've been dodging this stuff since
2002 or so in this format. The grading skills are just not there. The crooks
are just relentless and won't go away. I'm down to buying cheapo cards
from now on just to have some fun from time to time. It's over Johnny!

aconte · #17 06-04-2019, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I've just narrowed my purchasing substantially. I was picking up some unsigned cards for awhile, but want to shift my focus towards raw or low grade items. Going forward, I'll be searching histories of cards online before putting down any meaningful money. But the 20+ years I've been picking up the occasional PSA 5 or SGC 60 T206 card on a whim? Not again until there's a better mousetrap.

That's where I'm at too now!

Quote:

I am sure many people are evaluating whether to sell or reduce. Including me. It's really sad that it's reached this point, but so it goes. Thanks to all the perpetrators, much appreciated. Good for the hobby indeed.

Aint that the truth. This one really hurt. I've been dodging this stuff since
2002 or so in this format. The grading skills are just not there. The crooks
are just relentless and won't go away. I'm down to buying cheapo cards
from now on just to have some fun from time to time. It's over Johnny!

RiceBondsMntna2Young · #18 06-04-2019, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I've just narrowed my purchasing substantially. I was picking up some unsigned cards for awhile, but want to shift my focus towards raw or low grade items. Going forward, I'll be searching histories of cards online before putting down any meaningful money. But the 20+ years I've been picking up the occasional PSA 5 or SGC 60 T206 card on a whim? Not again until there's a better mousetrap.

I'm not sure I've seen much discussion about the bleakest outcome. What if it's proven - statistically or otherwise - that a massive majority of PSA 4+ vintage in circulation has been recently doctored? While the remainder will merely exist under a cloud of suspicion? Add all that to the conflict of interest any owner of a slabbed card has right now?

Even after Huigens & Co are given their last rites, PWCC’s toxic tenets may survive him. We may find ourselves in a landscape where we adjust to a new normal and take alterations as they are. Because otherwise, we're just going to have a massive mish mosh of Authentic, to varying degrees of eye appeal.

Exhibitman · #19 06-04-2019, 11:30 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing TPGs crash and burn as a whole, or at least have their influence over the financial fortunes of collectors greatly diminished.

I hope this scandal convinces the great mass of collectors that TPGs are unnecessary to their collecting and that they would be much happier if they weren't chasing plastic cases and getting all bunged up over what number some jackhole slaps on the score sheet.

I hope there will be and end to my having to spend the money and time to get cards graded for sale so that the average buyer won't think there is something wrong with the card, when I damned well know that there is something wrong with so many slabbed cards.

I hope that one day I won't have to store and ship these stupid f***ing plastic tombstones.

Scott L. · #20 06-04-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I am wishing less for the demise of PSA and more for the rise of a TPG that can restore confidence to a market that has been undone by the internet, which ironically fueled the fire for so long. This is the first time in the hobby's history that before and after pics are so prevalent. It is what exposed the signed T206 scandal, and it is what is exposing all of this awful tampering.

Even though I have dozens of autographed pre-war cards, I say shine the light on the fraud. Let's get this mess cleaned up and do things the right way. I don't have a viable solution, but that doesn't mean I want to live with the problem.

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. It would be interesting to see what a new TPG would look like. It certainly couldn�t operate to the massive scale of PSA and expected to be effective.

Market up big today and CLCT down around 3%.

steve B · #21 06-04-2019, 12:42 PM

I believe PSA will survive, with a few ifs
If they aren't complicit at the management level.
And if they manage to get it together enough to restore confidence.

The Philatelic Foundation, which has an excellent reputation went through a similar scandal in the mid 80's, and actually has someone on the inside involved. They did a lot of work to rebuild confidence, and it took quite some time. At the time, they didn't grade, just authenticated.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

At the moment, all three companies have had what are pretty major issues. They'll all need to address that in one way or another.
SGC has abandoned doing autographs, probably the right move.
What PSA will do about so many altered cards getting through, or what Beckett will do about a former employee getting what appears to be favorable treatment, we'll have to wait for.

sportscardtheory · #22 06-04-2019, 12:50 PM

I find it strange, the people downplaying and minimizing this situation. A card in a PSA or BGS slab is supposed to PROTECT us from fraud, not CONCEAL fraud. They have literally failed at the most basic level of their business' mission statements. They have essentially destroyed all faith in their "product", but it's gonna pass over and people are gonna forget? Okay. They sell peace of mind. Well, nice job. EVERY PSA/BGS graded card is suspect now.

robkas68 · #23 06-04-2019, 01:36 PM

I understand the anger, but letting it burn is not exactly an answer. Yes, everybody feels better if a couple people go to jail, but let�s face it that there are a lot of innocent people that are hurt by this. On a smaller scale, it is no different than the housing crisis. A bunch of people did a bunch of terrible things that created a bubble and the crash, but they were not the ones that paid. Yes, a couple people went to jail, but not many.

I never bought a house I couldn�t afford or speculated on real estate, but when I sold my single family middle class home in Florida because I took a new job, I lost 95k. I am fortunate enough that 95k didn�t effect my ability to feed my family but some people lost everything (and they were not the speculators).

When I suggest we start a trade association I understand the hurdles involved, time, money, acceptance, etc. This scandal only brought to light what we already sort of knew, that there are not a lot of controls to help keep it clean. That doesn�t mean it will be completely clean... the stock market isn�t despite the SEC. However, it is clean enough that people still view it as legitimate despite a history of scandals that still dwarf anything PWCC has ever done. Since the hobby will never be important enough to warrant the federal baseball card exchange commission, it is pretty much up to us.

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