Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

leaflover · #1 06-12-2019, 10:35 PM

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 06-12-2019, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaflover

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Mike, have you happened to notice Gary's affinity for 48 Leafs? Just saying. Probably his favorite set.

irv · #3 06-12-2019, 10:41 PM

I think anyone who reads my posts knows I was done with PWCC a long time ago.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #4 06-12-2019, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaflover

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

Bram99 · #5 06-12-2019, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Your analogy would be better if that were even remotely true.

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I�m now a group of 12 people we�re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn�t see happen no matter what the evidence.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 06-12-2019, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bram99

Here is a morbid and sad story but perhaps better analogy. 25 years ago today Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were brutally killed. I�m now a group of 12 people we�re not able to find OJ guilty.

Some people just refuse to believe in anything they didn�t see happen no matter what the evidence.

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

Kenny Cole · #7 06-12-2019, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

As an aside, the OJ thing really hurt me. I grew up in SoCal and was a huge OJ fan when he was at USC. My folks took me to the 1969 Rose Bowl where OJ was great and no one else at USC was. I was 8. When we played backyard football, whoever was the RB was OJ; the defender was either Deacon Jones or Butkus, depending on where you played. The QB was generally Roman Gabriel, maybe Unitas. Watching that white Bronco chase was pretty bad. Did you know that Willie Mays mentored him? I didn't until not too long ago, but that is what I've read. Evidently it didn't take all that well.

In any event, much as I would like to deny it, the evidence was pretty damning. He had really good lawyers and, as Peter said, the prosecution screwed a fair amount of stuff up. Judge Ito was also not up to the task. I watched a lot of that trial as a young lawyer. Doesn't matter, he was found not guilty of murder, which IMO is exactly why he was later hammered in Nevada. What goes around comes around I guess. Karma or something.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 06-12-2019, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

As an aside, the OJ thing really hurt me. I grew up in SoCal and was a huge OJ fan when he was at USC. My folks took me to the 1969 Rose Bowl where OJ was great and no one else at USC was. I was 8. When we played backyard football, whoever was the RB was OJ; the defender was either Deacon Jones or Butkus, depending on where you played. The QB was generally Roman Gabriel, maybe Unitas. Watching that white Bronco chase was pretty bad. Did you know that Willie Mays mentored him? I didn't until not too long ago, but that is what I've read. Evidently it didn't take all that well.

In any event, much as I would like to deny it, the evidence was pretty damning. He had really good lawyers and, as Peter said, the prosecution screwed a fair amount of stuff up. Judge Ito was also not up to the task. I watched a lot of that trial as a young lawyer. Doesn't matter, he was found not guilty of murder, which IMO is exactly why he was later hammered in Nevada. What goes around comes around I guess. Karma or something.

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Kenny Cole · #9 06-12-2019, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

Yeah. You don't do stuff in trial unless you know its going to work. I saw that firsthand when I second chaired (or maybe third -- there were two of us who were young lawyers from the same class) a trial that involved a kid who got blown up and sustained 3rd degree burns over 78% of his body and lived. It was amazing. Walton v. Black & Decker. Greg Walton is now a plastic surgeon, which is also amazing. In any event, the defense in that case had basically three defenses and did an in-court demonstration to prove how what we said couldn't possibly have happened. Instead, it destroyed them and proved our case. Ed Abel, my senior partner at the time, was the most brutal cross-examiner I still have ever seen. He just killed the defense expert to the point that the jury was laughing at him whenever he answered a question. It was ugly.

Ten million dollar verdict in 1989, all of which was collected. Wish I'd had a bigger part of that case. But I didn't. Life goes on.

Bram99 · #10 06-12-2019, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

OK well all of that said, couldn�t PWCC and PSA/CLCT have good lawyers, and whoever is going after them could swing and miss, and the whole thing could blow over like past scandals?

Somehow in the face of the scandal the stock is up.

Also the survey shows we at Net54 are not representative of the common collector because PWCC continues to have successful auctions (surely there�s no shilling in their auctions.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #11 06-13-2019, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

A glove that has been wet and dried out and an uncooperative witness? What could possibly go wrong? I always wondered why they didn't buy the identical glove and have someone with demonstrably larger hands (or maybe even a cast of OJ's hands, but that could be tricky too as you really need to move your hand to put on a glove) put it on. I mean OJ "struggling" to put on that glove was such bad theater.

Fuddjcal · #12 06-13-2019, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I watched a lot of the trial as well and I was astonished at the glove episode which gave Johnny Cochran his famous line in closing. What a colossal mistake that the veteran prosecutor Marcia Clark never in a million years should have allowed to happen. And the decision not to put in evidence of the attempted flight was also, to me, inexplicable.

FYI, Marcia Clark did not want him to try on the gloves. She wanted to have him try them on in chambers without the latex gloves underneath or not at all. It was Chris Darden who made the surprise move after F U Bailey got into his head and said to him "If you don't ask for him to try on the gloves, we will. The scenario has been played out in the ESPN's made in America.

Jesse could have been on the OJ Jury because he could not see the MOUNTAIN of evidence.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 06-13-2019, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I understand where you're going, but the prosecution really screwed up that case.

Not that there was much fun about that case, but watching Vincent Bugliosi's head nearly explode during interviews was, well I don't know the word for it, but it was something.

leaflover · #14 06-12-2019, 11:01 PM

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

70ToppsFanatic · #15 06-12-2019, 11:22 PM

I basically stopped activities with PWCC when the 2016 "buyers group" / shilling issues came to my attention and I received corroboration of what was being done by PWCC.

I can't be 100% sure that I have not purchased anything from them since that time without checking my records, but I am sure I haven't bought anything significant from them.

As for consigning, my last consignment was probably in 2014.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #16 06-13-2019, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leaflover

Scott,

Years ago I remember reading in the LA Times that Lasorda's Italian Restaurant, in Pasadena, on Fairoaks was shut down for 2 weeks because the rat urine exceeded the allowable levels. I was shocked that there isn't "zero tolerance".

There is no statute on "Rat Urine" there are rules about some things found IN rat urine (Leptospirosis etc.) and I'll admit I don't know what levels are "acceptable" but it's entirely possible that "allowable levels" are zero in the case of dangerous pathogens that may be found in rat urine and that's just the wording they use. I don't really feel like battering my way through CA restaurant health code to find out, but having worked in kitchens I assure you there is no test for rat urine. It's a myth that gets told about soda cans too.

MULLINS5 · #17 06-13-2019, 04:46 PM

Some collect cards. Some collect slabs. Pwcc is a great source for slabs. If that's what you're into, it makes perfect sense to continue doing business with them. I get it.

clydepepper · #18 06-13-2019, 04:59 PM

This message is to recognize that Peter Spaeth has contributed mightily to this thread...more than any human should be expected to contribute.

He is obviously very passionate about the subject and I do hope that he gets some resolution for his efforts.

That's Peter 46 posts - everyone else - 145.

Totals shared by someone who, evidently, has nothing better to do...which is fairly pathetic.

JeremyW · #19 06-13-2019, 04:59 PM

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

Republicaninmass · #20 06-13-2019, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

in some instances, PWCC_Auctions won cards from Pre_war_card_collector which were then altered and resold I believe.

Also, I feel there is some discrepancy in which Moser's altered cards were actually consigned by him directly, or if they were cards won by Moser at the direction of PWCC to be resold just 3 months later

irv · #21 06-13-2019, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yes... mid-grade is impacted perhaps the most. There is a new flood of exposed cards that has not even been discussed here...

Anyone who voted for the 3rd option in the poll really needs to read the Mantle thread on Blowout. If it�s too long for you, just review pages 110 - 116 which are the most recent. These card doctors can even repair actual tears in the card and get them past PSA. The scope of this is far wider than PSA portrays, and likely much more prevalent than many people here are aware.

vvvvv VIEW PAGES 110 - 116 BY CLICKING LINK vvvvv

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=116

Its crazy how many have been outed to date. The news of this scandal is spreading lik crazy. Many FB groups are aware of it now and are also spreading the word through other forums and media sites such as Twitter and Instagram, to name a couple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

And yet you keep contributing to/condoning the behavior?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

I have no doubts whatsoever PWCC and Moser were in bed together and Brent told Moser what cards were good candidates to be doctored.
It was a win win for both of them. Higher graded/nicer cards for PWCC brought the $$$ and the popularity that Dpeck admires so much, and Moser made out like a bandit.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Brent Mastro took a share of the winnings Moser made selling his doctored cards but who knows what agreement they had in place between them?

How anyone could continue to support these types of people is doing nothing to help the hobby but, blindly to them, are damaging it further.

Greed is what caught PWCC and Moser and Greed will be what sinks the people who continue to support them when this hobby grinds to a halt or has a huge correction.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #22 06-13-2019, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremyW

The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.

There are people here who could care less.

Do I have that right?

Except you mean couldn't care less

AustinMike · #23 06-13-2019, 05:21 PM

I have never consigned anything to PWCC and looking back at my records for the last 4 years, I see that I have only bought from PWCC 4 times in that span. I'm strictly a Mantle, Post cereal collector so there aren't a whole lot of items that I'm interested in.

But, I will not be buying from PWCC anymore. In fact I started yesterday. PWCC had a Mantle item I was interested in and had in my watch list. It ended at a price slightly less than what I would have put in for my maximum. PWCC didn't lose much by me not bidding and I know boycotting them won't have much affect on them.

But, based on the email Peter provided regarding Brent's acknowledgment of Moser and what Moser does to cards plus Brent's attempt to redefine alterations in order to whitewash his activities, my opinion is that Brent is dishonest and I refuse to do business with people that I have reason to believe are dishonest.

drcy · #24 06-13-2019, 05:45 PM

I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.

But, of course, I know will happen.

HRBAKER · #25 06-13-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.

But, of course, we all know this will happen.

You are assuming they all would care.

aloondilana · #26 06-14-2019, 08:52 AM

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

vintagetoppsguy · #27 06-14-2019, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloondilana

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

+1

martyp · #28 06-15-2019, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aloondilana

The grading companies are the ones who put these trimmed/altered cards back on the street worth several times more.

The grading companies are who we trust and pay money to accurately grade our cards.

PSA should be carrying all the blame here. They have consistently placed these cards into their holders, yet all I'm seeing from PSA is dodging questions and diverting to how they have been the catalyst for eliminating fraud in our hobby.

PSA response has been dog shit! I am convinced there is a shady grader who has been given "envelopes" to grade some of these altered cards.
There really cannot be any other exception.

But to constantly barrage PWCC is ridiculous!

Here is an analogy. You are standing outside a 7-11 and hear a gun shot. You then see someone walk out of the store with a gun in one hand and cash in the other. You look inside and see a body on the floor with a hole in their chest. You then look and the person with the gun walks across the street to a gas station. You hear another gun shot. Do you walk away because you did not shoot anyone or do you call the police and tell them what you saw? You have a pretty good idea what happened.

vintagetoppsguy · #29 06-15-2019, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyp

Here is an analogy. You are standing outside a 7-11 and hear a gun shot. You then see someone walk out of the store with a gun in one hand and cash in the other. You look inside and see a body on the floor with a hole in their chest. You then look and the person with the gun walks across the street to a gas station. You hear another gun shot. Do you walk away because you did not shoot anyone or do you call the police and tell them what you saw? You have a pretty good idea what happened.

If it were me, my guess would be that someone went inside the 7-11 to rob the place, the but cashier turned the tables, took out his gun and shot the robber. That was the first gun shot that I heard. Then, the cashier in fear and shock, grabbed the money from the register to safeguard it so he could go across the street to the gas station to call the police. That's when I saw him with cash in one hand and a gun in the other. While at the gas station across the street, he stumbled across another robbery in progress, already had his gun in hand, so shot that robber too. That was the second gun shot that I heard. That's just my guess though. I suppose we could speculate all day long about what really happened.

Anybody here remember the Duke Lacrosse case? Those young men were tried and convicted in the court of public opinion by the media and everyone else before they even went to trial. They were vile, filthy, disgusting, racist animals that raped a young black girl. Anybody remember that outcome of that case? If so, please help me out. Refresh my memory if you will.

martyp · #30 06-15-2019, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If it were me, my guess would be that someone went inside the 7-11 to rob the place, the but cashier turned the tables, took out his gun and shot the robber. That was the first gun shot that I heard. Then, the cashier in fear and shock, grabbed the money from the register to safeguard it so he could go across the street to the gas station to call the police. That's when I saw him with cash in one hand and a gun in the other. While at the gas station across the street, he stumbled across another robbery in progress, already had his gun in hand, so shot that robber too. That was the second gun shot that I heard. That's just my guess though. I suppose we could speculate all day long about what really happened.

Anybody here remember the Duke Lacrosse case? Those young men were tried and convicted in the court of public opinion by the media and everyone else before they even went to trial. They were vile, filthy, disgusting, racist animals that raped a young black girl. Anybody remember that outcome of that case? If so, please help me out. Refresh my memory if you will.

So you are of the mind to just leave and not say anything.

CobbSpikedMe · #31 06-15-2019, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If it were me, my guess would be that someone went inside the 7-11 to rob the place, the but cashier turned the tables, took out his gun and shot the robber. That was the first gun shot that I heard. Then, the cashier in fear and shock, grabbed the money from the register to safeguard it so he could go across the street to the gas station to call the police. That's when I saw him with cash in one hand and a gun in the other. While at the gas station across the street, he stumbled across another robbery in progress, already had his gun in hand, so shot that robber too. That was the second gun shot that I heard. That's just my guess though. I suppose we could speculate all day long about what really happened.

While your scenario could be a possibility of what transpired, I believe you're full of crap that that is what you would seriously guess is what happened.

Come on David.

vintagetoppsguy · #32 06-15-2019, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

While your scenario could be a possibility of what transpired, I believe you're full of crap that that is what you would seriously guess is what happened.

Come on David.

Of course I'm just joshing, but the point is that sometimes things aren't exactly as they appear...my reference to the Duke Lacrosse rape case.

CobbSpikedMe · #33 06-15-2019, 11:45 PM

I figured as much. Point taken otherwise regarding the lacrosse boys.

MULLINS5 · #34 06-16-2019, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Of course I'm just joshing, but the point is that sometimes things aren't exactly as they appear...my reference to the Duke Lacrosse rape case.

Someone intentionally made up a rape story. We're talking about trading card fraud. Nobody is making anything up. The Blowout guys are doing great work and showing strong evidence. Disgusting reference.

View Poll Results: What is your response to the recent PWCC revelations?
1. I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC in the first place.	166	34.87%
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC.	163	34.24%
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC.	78	16.39%
I haven't decided	69	14.50%
Voters: 476. You may not vote on this poll

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