PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

swarmee · #1 07-05-2019, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

And because of all this uncertainty and the ultimate inability to be able to possibly prove definitively what graded cards are or aren't altered/doctored, I can see a large part of the hobby community turning a blind eye and deaf ear to the whole thing and waiting till it blows over.

This is what has happened in all the previous scandals, and you can see those heavily invested parties already hoping this will blow over too, so their their baseball card nest eggs aren't decimated in value.
However, now the investigators are the collectors that are fed up with Beckett, PSA, and to a lesser extent, SGC claiming to be unbiased arbitrators of card condition. They are not letting this blow over. It's now been 2 months since the first card was noted to be "conserved" through PSA, and the number of fraudulent cards detected and number of Cert # submission records are only INCREASING in severity and sheer numbers. Currently, PSA is liable for approximately $1,000,000 in Grade Guarantees for just the cards with before and after pictures.
But as I informed them, if PWCC pays for the reimbursement, that lessens their liability. If PWCC or Gary (or other fraudsters) then try to get reimbursement through the Grade Guarantee on cards they KNOWINGLY submitted as altered, PSA should tell them to pound sand since they violated the rules they signed when they submitted the cards. And Brent himself in that hour-long video, promised to refund from PWCC's pocket the fraudulent cards submitted directly by the company.
We haven't even gotten to the National yet. PSA may be sticking its head in the sand, but if their reserve doesn't go up to the millions in the next shareholder statement, someone should refer it to the SEC for investigation. PSA still has not made ANY notification to its collectors, save the worthless "we were duped" statement on their never read message board. It's never been on their website, emailed to their customers, and they haven't been calling anyone, as far as I know.
PWCC actually had reached out to some of the collectors who had cards outed (a.k.a. "slandered" as a Brettism) on the Blowout boards, but not to any of the other customers who bought cards on the same tainted submissions. If people aren't willing to demand accountability for PSA, Beckett, and SGC's lack of accuracy, then nothing will change without law enforcement. But some are speaking with their wallets.

I know I've directly contacted about 30 of their Set Registry guys to inform them their cards were tainted. If PSA isn't going to protect their customers (despite their "NEVER GET CHEATED" motto), I will step in. And so will the other Blowout Detectives. This isn't really like any scandal they've had in the past.

Johnny630 · #2 07-05-2019, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

This is what has happened in all the previous scandals, and you can see those heavily invested parties already hoping this will blow over too, so their their baseball card nest eggs aren't decimated in value.
However, now the investigators are the collectors that are fed up with Beckett, PSA, and to a lesser extent, SGC claiming to be unbiased arbitrators of card condition. They are not letting this blow over. It's now been 2 months since the first card was noted to be "conserved" through PSA, and the number of fraudulent cards detected and number of Cert # submission records are only INCREASING in severity and sheer numbers. Currently, PSA is liable for approximately $1,000,000 in Grade Guarantees for just the cards with before and after pictures.
But as I informed them, if PWCC pays for the reimbursement, that lessens their liability. If PWCC or Gary (or other fraudsters) then try to get reimbursement through the Grade Guarantee on cards they KNOWINGLY submitted as altered, PSA should tell them to pound sand since they violated the rules they signed when they submitted the cards. And Brent himself in that hour-long video, promised to refund from PWCC's pocket the fraudulent cards submitted directly by the company.
We haven't even gotten to the National yet. PSA may be sticking its head in the sand, but if their reserve doesn't go up to the millions in the next shareholder statement, someone should refer it to the SEC for investigation. PSA still has not made ANY notification to its collectors, save the worthless "we were duped" statement on their never read message board. It's never been on their website, emailed to their customers, and they haven't been calling anyone, as far as I know.
PWCC actually had reached out to some of the collectors who had cards outed (a.k.a. "slandered" as a Brettism) on the Blowout boards, but not to any of the other customers who bought cards on the same tainted submissions. If people aren't willing to demand accountability for PSA, Beckett, and SGC's lack of accuracy, then nothing will change without law enforcement. But some are speaking with their wallets.

I know I've directly contacted about 30 of their Set Registry guys to inform them their cards were tainted. If PSA isn't going to protect their customers (despite their "NEVER GET CHEATED" motto), I will step in. And so will the other Blowout Detectives. This isn't really like any scandal they've had in the past.

+1 Joh

perezfan · #3 07-05-2019, 02:39 PM

It's arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby, and is receiving virtually no "mainstream media" attention. Of course it behooves PSA to shut up. PSA is counting on it all blowing over, but if enough attention is brought to the matter at The National Convention, there will definitely be mainstream coverage that finally captures it. Media is always present at The National...

Spreading the word (as swarmee is doing) is really up to the collectors who care about the hobby. There is no other "voice" in our corner, and the opposition has far deeper pockets to defend and deflect blame.

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout. And how many altered examples that now reside in numbered holders is anyone's guess. Those who are deeply invested (whether monetarily or emotionally) will never be able to give it up, but the numerical grading system is now called into question and has largely been rendered meaningless. The timing is ripe for a complete system overhaul.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 07-05-2019, 02:44 PM

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

Johnny630 · #5 07-05-2019, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

Agree Peter sadly it�s always been that way and will continue to be....

barrysloate · #6 07-05-2019, 03:11 PM

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it.

If you are willing to pay say $1000 for a genuine NR MT/MT, you can't pay the same amount for a lower grade card that's been doctored, trimmed, recolored, dry cleaned, or whatever else. Somewhere, somehow collectors have to wake up to the ridiculousness of this all.

Or maybe absolutely nothing will change. Let's find out.

drcy · #7 07-05-2019, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it..

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) or paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

I remember Julie Vognar saying years back she didn't deserve getting an auction house's catalog because she bid without winning. The auction house president corrected her, saying she deserved the catalogs because her bids helped realize the winning prices. Remove some bricks from the wall, even lower ones, and the wall is shorter.

Further, the prevailing hobby opinion about valuations will affect prices. Why does some billionaire newbie buy a 1952 Topps Mantle? Because hobbiests tell him it's the card to get. If prevailing opinion is "Fine, buy the card, but only an idiot $100,000 premium for a spooned out wrinkle and removed spot, the billionaire will hear that too." He may buy the card, but he's not going to pay the current $100,000 extra.

barrysloate · #8 07-05-2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) and paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

swarmee · #9 07-05-2019, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout.

That's one of the interesting things. The whitman111 account has purchased some complete sets from raw card sellers, so it's not just cracked out slabs.
There are many sets in the PSA registry that are completely useless due to fraudulently slabbed cards, IMO:
1952 Topps Look-N-See
1950-60s Parkhurst Hockey
1948 Leaf Baseball, Football, and Wrestling
T206 (not just from Moser, but years and years of trimmed cards)
1952 Topps baseball
1950s Bowman
1951 Topps Ringside
1952 Berk Ross
N162 Champions
1937 O-Pee-Chee hockey
1961 Fleer Basketball
N28 Ginter Champions
1933 Goudey Sport Kings
1957 Topps
1955 Bowman
1955 Bowman FB
1958 Topps
1960 Leaf baseball
1959 Topps baseball

Thousands upon thousands of cards altered from some of the nicest/most collected sets in the industry.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 07-05-2019, 03:13 PM

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

Johnny630 · #11 07-05-2019, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

You’re correct! I would see them either set up yup....or last year, even worse, white plains he was walking the floor with a badge/dealer pass.......I was like what the hell !!!!

BobC · #12 07-05-2019, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.

Sorry for my long posts, but I'm old school and not a child of Twitter and Instagram. If I'm going to say something I'm going to try and present a complete picture/argument/statement and not just put out a quick line or two. All too often someone puts down a line or two and it is so vague or incomplete that most people misinterpret or misunderstand what they are trying to say, and then more or less ignore or really don't even think about what they read. If someone reading my posts realizes I'm not just blurting out or making a knee jerk reaction or statement as to what is going on, it will hopefully get more people really thinking about the issues and problems.

The questionability as to the alteration of so many cards is already out there, the proverbial horses have already left the barn and they aren't coming back!!! Absent card doctors coming forth and admitting what they have done and what graded cards are out there that have been altered, we'll never know for certain which cards are or are not good. And that is only if they kept complete, accurate records and finally agreed to/were forced to share that information with the public. But because of all the time that has likely passed and the myriad of cards they have likely altered and put into the hobby over the years, who knows how many of those cards over time have been cracked out of their originally misgraded holders, re-submitted, changed from one TPG to another, or put back into raw form so that none of them can ever be traced back to original card doctor records. It is already too late as the taint to so many cards now exists, and unless we can come up with tests and measurements that definitely prove that a card has or has not been doctored/altered, we'll never be able to tell for sure the correct nature of almost any graded card, and unfortunately, maybe even quite a few raw ones out there that had been broken out of their holders. And even if it were possible to come up with definitive tests and procedures to prove or disprove alterations, who is going to bear the brunt for the costs to have every card out there re-tested and graded, and who is going to be the group/company to do it? And maybe even worse, if you have a large collection or inventory of graded cards, do you really want to have someone go through them and then let you know a large portion of them are not completely legit and have been altered? There are so many innocent collectors/dealers out there that stand to get hurt it is frightening.

And as Swarmee mentioned in one of his earlier posts, in previous scandals the powers that be in the hobby would be quiet and merely wait for things to blow over and then go back to business as usual. This may be a little different though as the current scandal may be a lot bigger than previously thought and more far reaching. Also, as I've tried to point out, with the possible involvement of a publicly traded entity, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, it has added a new, unique perspective and twist to the issues and also the potential for another stage on which news of the issues can be presented and brought to the media and public at large. Issues and potential scandals involving baseball cards is really only of interest to a very small part of the public, and a lot of people in the mainstream think we're weird and strange to begin with because we still collect cards as adults, so they really aren't going to be that interested and care much about are situation or problems. However, now have those same issues and scandals possibly affecting a publicly traded company and its stock value and suddenly you have a whole new and potentially larger portion of the public that may be interested in what is going on. So all the more chance it finally gets more publicity and notice. PSA/CU is not really a very large company, even though publicly traded, and likely won't ever get front page mention on the Wall Street Journal, but you never know!!

Peter_Spaeth · #13 07-05-2019, 05:40 PM

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 07-05-2019, 05:41 PM

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

BobC · #15 07-05-2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

swarmee · #16 07-05-2019, 07:26 PM

BobC, you are providing a useful perspective. It's just that wall of text posts are routinely ignored on message boards. Keep posting, but you'll get more traction with compact posts than long ones.

I find it very interesting that PSA is bringing graded cards to the National and asking visitors to their booth to "grade the cards" to see how much they match with the real grades. It would be funny if a bunch of people took them up on the offer and marked about 70% of them "Altered" as a result of this scandal.

56Horsehide · #17 07-06-2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I, for one, appreciate your posts. While they may seem to be a bit verbose, they add more value (factual, precise, well worded, etc.) to the topic at hand than the majority of "one liners" and "speaking but not saying anything" posts I have difficulty following. I am a retired accountant (private sector) so that may help. I am looking forward to your follow up comments regarding the 6/30/2019 financial report of PSA. Hang in there and don't give up.

Jim

Peter_Spaeth · #18 07-06-2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I was only suggesting you change the format of your posts to make them easier on the eyes.

Johnny630 · #19 07-05-2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

Ugh that�s disheartening Peter......

Peter_Spaeth · #20 07-05-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Ugh that’s disheartening Peter......

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

Johnny630 · #21 07-05-2019, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

Right pushing the investment side aspect of high grade vintage......come on! What a bunch of bull....short term it worked... people bought it hook line and sinker...this would have been a very fitting piece for the journal! Maybe the gentleman knows the editor at the IBD....would fit even better there or
CNBC Greed that may very well happen down the road after it all shakes out

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