PSA/SGC Waiting Lines At 2019 National

perezfan · #1 07-05-2019, 02:39 PM

It's arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby, and is receiving virtually no "mainstream media" attention. Of course it behooves PSA to shut up. PSA is counting on it all blowing over, but if enough attention is brought to the matter at The National Convention, there will definitely be mainstream coverage that finally captures it. Media is always present at The National...

Spreading the word (as swarmee is doing) is really up to the collectors who care about the hobby. There is no other "voice" in our corner, and the opposition has far deeper pockets to defend and deflect blame.

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout. And how many altered examples that now reside in numbered holders is anyone's guess. Those who are deeply invested (whether monetarily or emotionally) will never be able to give it up, but the numerical grading system is now called into question and has largely been rendered meaningless. The timing is ripe for a complete system overhaul.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 07-05-2019, 02:44 PM

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

Johnny630 · #3 07-05-2019, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The timing is ripe for some serious prosecutions. This hobby will never police itself. 99 percent will look the other way or gladly take in the profits from the price umbrella.

And continue to protect card doctors buying from them or consigning to them.

Agree Peter sadly it�s always been that way and will continue to be....

barrysloate · #4 07-05-2019, 03:11 PM

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it.

If you are willing to pay say $1000 for a genuine NR MT/MT, you can't pay the same amount for a lower grade card that's been doctored, trimmed, recolored, dry cleaned, or whatever else. Somewhere, somehow collectors have to wake up to the ridiculousness of this all.

Or maybe absolutely nothing will change. Let's find out.

drcy · #5 07-05-2019, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

If the hobby is going to accept that a great percentage of all high grade cards are altered and not what they appear to be, then these cards should start selling at a deep discount. You can argue that a card altered to look like an 8 is still a beautiful card and worth buying for one's collection, but it would make no sense to pay top dollar for it..

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) or paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

I remember Julie Vognar saying years back she didn't deserve getting an auction house's catalog because she bid without winning. The auction house president corrected her, saying she deserved the catalogs because her bids helped realize the winning prices. Remove some bricks from the wall, even lower ones, and the wall is shorter.

Further, the prevailing hobby opinion about valuations will affect prices. Why does some billionaire newbie buy a 1952 Topps Mantle? Because hobbiests tell him it's the card to get. If prevailing opinion is "Fine, buy the card, but only an idiot $100,000 premium for a spooned out wrinkle and removed spot, the billionaire will hear that too." He may buy the card, but he's not going to pay the current $100,000 extra.

barrysloate · #6 07-05-2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

That's what I've said. Even if altered 'high grade' cards are valued (and restored cards already have value), I find it hard to believe even a billionaire will place the same price difference between a 9 and a 10 knowing it's due to alteration in someone's basement.

At the least I expect a price correction. This will also be due to some, many, collectors leaving the hobby (for such card, at least) and paying less.

Someone argued that some will still value cards the same so things won't change. But that doesn't matter if a percentage don't. Prices across the board are a group thing, not a handful of people who don't care thing. If 20% don't care and 20% do, the 20% who do and no longer pay the $$ will help lower the prices.

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

Johnny630 · #7 07-05-2019, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

Antique market fell hard.....are you implying you think it could hit this industry soon ?

drcy · #8 07-05-2019, 06:49 PM

That's an excellent point I had not thought of, and should be made to PSA investors who hope the controversy goes away.

The more high grade cards created, the less rare and valuable they will be.

Many make valuations by the Pop Report.

This alone should make collectors with high-grade cards who otherwise have their head in the sand take notice. These alterations/scams will affect the populations/valuations of their current investments. Their rare graded cards will be come less and less rare, and may someday be plentiful.

By putting their heads in the sand and hoping the forgets about it, they may not be protecting their investments but devaluating them.

BobC · #9 07-05-2019, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's another reason David the prices of these cards will come down. In the battle between the card doctors who are trying to get their work past the graders, and the graders whose job it is to reject this garbage, the card doctors have just been given a rousing victory. They're popping the champagne, because if the TPG's refuse to acknowledge and fix this mess, they've given the card doctors the green light to continue doing what they've been doing. In fact, many will ramp up production. Heck, some might even hire a few trainees and teach them the tricks of the trade (when business is good you expand).

As a result, the number of altered cards in circulation will increase dramatically. Soon, there will be so many available they won't even be that hard to find. And if you increase the supply, prices will go down.

This is not a good look for the future of this industry. Nobody is listening to me, but I suggest TPG's take a really hard look at this problem before the hobby is ruined altogether.

Barry,

I'm listening and agree with you. The whole crux of this problem started back when the hobby community more or less let the TPGs take over as the sole arbiters of what is and is not authentic and what the grading system is and so on. We now have multiple TPGs with no single, clear set of standards or rules as to grades and yet, they have become the self-annointed, so-called experts of our hobby. To remove and replace them, especially because of things like the Registry, is virtually impossible to do now without severely disrupting the current status quo of the hobby and damaging so many innocent collectors and dealers. And quite frankly, because of the financial aspects of what they do, the TPGs are not able to operate and perform their supposed independent, third-party services without an eye towards their own bottom lines. In other words, they are in it for the money and not completely independent. Especially a TPG that is a publicly traded company. They are responsible and answer to their shareholders, not the collecting community to whom they have promised to provide fair, consistent and unbiased opinions and grading services. As it is, the TPGs have virtually no transparency as to what they do, no specific and consistent grading standards and methods among themselves, or even let us know the specific training their so-called experts go through to become graders, or so I've been led to believe over the years. And if someone wants to dispute me on that point I've heard put forth by others, let me know what would happen if I walked into a TPG's offices and asked to sit in while they graded my cards and see exactly what they did do. Would they let me observe?

What should have been done (or maybe should now be done) is to have set up or established some type of national collecting group or organization (preferably a non-profit type of entity) and have the people/collectors involved in the hobby become members and possibly pay annual dues to help raise some funds to oversee and handle aspects of the hobby on behalf of all collectors. This would be an organization for collectors, not auction houses, dealers, TPGs, or others that make their money and living off the hobby. As a national organization it could, for example, poll and find out from the members what the exact, consistent grading standards and measures should be for the grading of cards. Granted, everyone still won't always agree what would make a card worthy of a 3 grade as opposed to a 4 grade, and so on, but they would know that regardless of who was doing the grading that the grade would be consistent and in compliance and agreement with the overall standards set be the collecting community as a whole, not just the whim or opinion of a single TPG. Especially a publicly traded TPG that is in the business for profit alone (as are the other TPGs as well) and not really concerned about the collecting community other than how to best use them to make even more money. Besides setting uniform standards for grading and authenticating items, such an organization could also take on and set curriculum for training and the determination of what would qualify someone as an expert authenticator or grader, and not leave that solely up to each different TPG to decide for themselves and on behalf of all of us collectors either. And that way, any TPG that wanted to be approved and authorized by the collecting organization as a TPG would have to submit to review and oversight of their services to insure they are in compliance with what standards and measures the hobby organization chose, not what they wanted. And you could also establish divisions, groups in the organization to separately cover dealers, auction houses and so on. That way the various dealers, auction houses and other related groups and entities could also be subject to hobby organization review and oversight to insure that they confirm and meet hobby standards set by the hobby community, not the dealers and auction houses themselves. Of course to start out, you wouldn't necessarily have a large enough number of members to get anyone to agree to listen to you, but over time, if you could get enough people to understand and join in for the good of the hobby, TPGs, dealers and auction houses would have no choice but to listen. A TPG (or other groups/entities) could initially tell the hobby organization and its members to go to hell and not bother listening to them at all, but hopefully over time a national hobby organization could get eventually enough members who would then refuse to do business and use that TPG or other entities services anymore until they agreed to the unified standards and oversight of such national hobby organization.

Wouldn't be easy to start something like this and you certainly wouldn't get overnight approval or commitment from enough collectors to sway and coerce the current main players and participants who are more or less controlling and calling the shots in our hobby right away. But over time and with an ever growing member base you could slowly begin to force and make positive changes to get the TPGs, dealers, auction houses and others to finally agree to confirm and begin applying set, consistent standards, or force them to be ostracized by the collecting community going forward and damage their businesses, possibly irreparably. Sort of like the Better Business Bureau or the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval organizations. And this current scandal that is coming out may just be the big, all-encompassing issue that could possibly act as the spark to set off such a wave of change in this hobby and at least start to put some of the control and decision making back in the hands of the collectors and not in the hands of those that make their money off the collectors.

I know, I know, possibly a far-fetched dream and thoughts, but you have to have dreams and hopes that start somewhere, right?

swarmee · #10 07-05-2019, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I cannot even imagine how many thousands of raw cards were bought at local shows or from private collections, which cannot be traced like the ones on Blowout.

That's one of the interesting things. The whitman111 account has purchased some complete sets from raw card sellers, so it's not just cracked out slabs.
There are many sets in the PSA registry that are completely useless due to fraudulently slabbed cards, IMO:
1952 Topps Look-N-See
1950-60s Parkhurst Hockey
1948 Leaf Baseball, Football, and Wrestling
T206 (not just from Moser, but years and years of trimmed cards)
1952 Topps baseball
1950s Bowman
1951 Topps Ringside
1952 Berk Ross
N162 Champions
1937 O-Pee-Chee hockey
1961 Fleer Basketball
N28 Ginter Champions
1933 Goudey Sport Kings
1957 Topps
1955 Bowman
1955 Bowman FB
1958 Topps
1960 Leaf baseball
1959 Topps baseball

Thousands upon thousands of cards altered from some of the nicest/most collected sets in the industry.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 07-05-2019, 03:13 PM

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

Johnny630 · #12 07-05-2019, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

John all these guys are or were show guys, relentlessly looking for raw cards they could alter.

You’re correct! I would see them either set up yup....or last year, even worse, white plains he was walking the floor with a badge/dealer pass.......I was like what the hell !!!!

BobC · #13 07-05-2019, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Bob, you made a lot of good comments in your post, some of which may have gotten buried (due to the length of it). But one of the keys is that nobody knows how many altered cards are in numbered slabs. Card Doctors have been at it forever, and it's only recently (through use of the internet and excellent detective skills) that these alterations have been identified.

Sorry for my long posts, but I'm old school and not a child of Twitter and Instagram. If I'm going to say something I'm going to try and present a complete picture/argument/statement and not just put out a quick line or two. All too often someone puts down a line or two and it is so vague or incomplete that most people misinterpret or misunderstand what they are trying to say, and then more or less ignore or really don't even think about what they read. If someone reading my posts realizes I'm not just blurting out or making a knee jerk reaction or statement as to what is going on, it will hopefully get more people really thinking about the issues and problems.

The questionability as to the alteration of so many cards is already out there, the proverbial horses have already left the barn and they aren't coming back!!! Absent card doctors coming forth and admitting what they have done and what graded cards are out there that have been altered, we'll never know for certain which cards are or are not good. And that is only if they kept complete, accurate records and finally agreed to/were forced to share that information with the public. But because of all the time that has likely passed and the myriad of cards they have likely altered and put into the hobby over the years, who knows how many of those cards over time have been cracked out of their originally misgraded holders, re-submitted, changed from one TPG to another, or put back into raw form so that none of them can ever be traced back to original card doctor records. It is already too late as the taint to so many cards now exists, and unless we can come up with tests and measurements that definitely prove that a card has or has not been doctored/altered, we'll never be able to tell for sure the correct nature of almost any graded card, and unfortunately, maybe even quite a few raw ones out there that had been broken out of their holders. And even if it were possible to come up with definitive tests and procedures to prove or disprove alterations, who is going to bear the brunt for the costs to have every card out there re-tested and graded, and who is going to be the group/company to do it? And maybe even worse, if you have a large collection or inventory of graded cards, do you really want to have someone go through them and then let you know a large portion of them are not completely legit and have been altered? There are so many innocent collectors/dealers out there that stand to get hurt it is frightening.

And as Swarmee mentioned in one of his earlier posts, in previous scandals the powers that be in the hobby would be quiet and merely wait for things to blow over and then go back to business as usual. This may be a little different though as the current scandal may be a lot bigger than previously thought and more far reaching. Also, as I've tried to point out, with the possible involvement of a publicly traded entity, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, it has added a new, unique perspective and twist to the issues and also the potential for another stage on which news of the issues can be presented and brought to the media and public at large. Issues and potential scandals involving baseball cards is really only of interest to a very small part of the public, and a lot of people in the mainstream think we're weird and strange to begin with because we still collect cards as adults, so they really aren't going to be that interested and care much about are situation or problems. However, now have those same issues and scandals possibly affecting a publicly traded company and its stock value and suddenly you have a whole new and potentially larger portion of the public that may be interested in what is going on. So all the more chance it finally gets more publicity and notice. PSA/CU is not really a very large company, even though publicly traded, and likely won't ever get front page mention on the Wall Street Journal, but you never know!!

Peter_Spaeth · #14 07-05-2019, 05:40 PM

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 07-05-2019, 05:41 PM

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

BobC · #16 07-05-2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bob -- please take this constructively, but if you could break up some of those long paragraphs your posts would be easier to read.

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

swarmee · #17 07-05-2019, 07:26 PM

BobC, you are providing a useful perspective. It's just that wall of text posts are routinely ignored on message boards. Keep posting, but you'll get more traction with compact posts than long ones.

I find it very interesting that PSA is bringing graded cards to the National and asking visitors to their booth to "grade the cards" to see how much they match with the real grades. It would be funny if a bunch of people took them up on the offer and marked about 70% of them "Altered" as a result of this scandal.

Johnny630 · #18 07-05-2019, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, you are providing a useful perspective. It's just that wall of text posts are routinely ignored on message boards. Keep posting, but you'll get more traction with compact posts than long ones.

I find it very interesting that PSA is bringing graded cards to the National and asking visitors to their booth to "grade the cards" to see how much they match with the real grades. It would be funny if a bunch of people took them up on the offer and marked about 70% of them "Altered" as a result of this scandal.

This is very laughable!! Mark Them GM !!!

56Horsehide · #19 07-06-2019, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I, for one, appreciate your posts. While they may seem to be a bit verbose, they add more value (factual, precise, well worded, etc.) to the topic at hand than the majority of "one liners" and "speaking but not saying anything" posts I have difficulty following. I am a retired accountant (private sector) so that may help. I am looking forward to your follow up comments regarding the 6/30/2019 financial report of PSA. Hang in there and don't give up.

Jim

Peter_Spaeth · #20 07-06-2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobC

Sorry, I'll quit posting. Not much more I can say or add anyway. You guys keep up the pressure and the good fight. We'll see how it all comes out.

I was only suggesting you change the format of your posts to make them easier on the eyes.

Johnny630 · #21 07-05-2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Speaking of the WSJ, a reporter who writes for them had a story ready to go, but the editors killed it. Very disappointing.

Ugh that�s disheartening Peter......

Peter_Spaeth · #22 07-05-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Ugh that’s disheartening Peter......

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

Johnny630 · #23 07-05-2019, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yup. With all that PWCC has done to try to clothe itself in Wall Street garb and jargon, it would have been perfect too.

Right pushing the investment side aspect of high grade vintage......come on! What a bunch of bull....short term it worked... people bought it hook line and sinker...this would have been a very fitting piece for the journal! Maybe the gentleman knows the editor at the IBD....would fit even better there or
CNBC Greed that may very well happen down the road after it all shakes out

barrysloate · #24 07-05-2019, 06:38 PM

A big lie can't go on forever. Sure, it may be business as usual at the National this year, but as time passes this story will grow. There will be a day of reckoning. It just might not be here quite yet.

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