USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

TanksAndSpartans · #1 08-07-2019, 02:48 PM

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

vintagetoppsguy · #2 08-07-2019, 03:00 PM

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to �hundreds� of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole.

egbeachley · #3 08-07-2019, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to �hundreds� of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole.

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

BeanTown · #4 08-07-2019, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

+1

Keith H. Thompson · #5 08-08-2019, 06:54 AM

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #6 08-08-2019, 07:06 AM

Wish I could've been a fly on that wall.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 08-08-2019, 07:10 AM

Jim was a regular poster here for quite some time, and of course Barry is a fixture. I don't recall either posting about this meeting though.

Keith H. Thompson · #8 08-08-2019, 07:07 AM

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

barrysloate · #9 08-08-2019, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 08-08-2019, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

So what was the upshot?

WhenItWasAHobby · #11 08-07-2019, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get “tipped off” to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process “cleaned up.” Those dealers don’t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

First off, if you're a dealer of PSA cards, you can't criticize PSA or bring a scandal to their attention, otherwise you're pretty much banned from submitting to PSA, being on their dealer list, registry, message board, etc. I've seen this happen first hand.

Second, a lot of dealers and collectors who are heavily invested in PSA cards don't like PSA-related scandals. If for any other reason this hurts their income and hobby/investment respectively. Again from experience, I publicly spoke out about PSA card doctoring ten years ago with compelling evidence and I was shunned and berated by dealers and collectors - even though I was telling the truth and had indisputable evidence of the doctoring. It's mind-boggling.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #12 08-07-2019, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

This part didn't quite make sense to me:

Members of BODA often get �tipped off� to questionable auctions by dealers who want the auction process �cleaned up.� Those dealers don�t want their names attached for fear of being ostracized by the sports memorabilia collector community.

Ostracized by collectors, other dealers? Does either make sense?

Makes perfect sense to me. I thought long and hard before I decided to speak my mind. There are MANY dealers who like the status quo. If by upsetting them you limit with whom you can do business it can be a tough situation. I'm sure there are some people out there who won't do business with me because of my outspokenness on the subject. Luckily I'm small enough where they probably weren't doing business with me to begin with. The larger you get the more intertwined the business relationships are.

TanksAndSpartans · #13 08-07-2019, 04:03 PM

Thanks for the replies - seems really perverted to me that by doing the right thing, you become a bad guy.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 08-07-2019, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TanksAndSpartans

Thanks for the replies - seems really perverted to me that by doing the right thing, you become a bad guy.

Welcome to sports cards. There is an enormous vested interest in the status quo, whether or not it's built on fraud. People have been doctoring cards, enabling card doctors, or looking the other way forever.

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