USA TODAY article regarding FBI subpoenas, doctoring, etc......

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This part doesn't make sense to me...

Jeff says, "PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards and the problematic ones are in the hundreds..."

The article goes on to say, "Lichtman said that PWCC has already refunded money to “hundreds” of people who purchased suspect cards at auction..."

So, let me get this straight. Hundreds of problematic cards were sold and hundreds of people have been refunded. Sounds to me like nearly everyone who purchased a problematic card has been made whole.

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Leon, we need a like button on this site!

+1

[Keith H. Thompson]

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Wish I could've been a fly on that wall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jim was a regular poster here for quite some time, and of course Barry is a fixture. I don't recall either posting about this meeting though.

[Jay Wolt]

The card on that list that went for most at auction was a 1914 Cracker Jack Joe Jackson, which was originally graded by PSA as a 2 and sold at auction for $22,800 in 2017.

SGC later gave it a 5.0 and it was sold at a PWCC auction last year for $87,877.77.

It amazes me that someone has the stones to spend $23K & then work on the card.
Too bad it didn't come back w/ a lower (or no) grade

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

It amazes me that someone has the stones to spend $23K & then work on the card.
Too bad it didn't come back w/ a lower (or no) grade

They had the stones because they knew it would upgrade...

[Keith H. Thompson]

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

Team 1: Collectors, Dealers, Investors, AHs, TPAs who publicly admit that just possibly 1% bad apples are getting past

a. the vigilant graders who are doing their best to prevent the hobby contamination of altered cards, but
b. it is the bad evil card doctors at the root of the problem, not us
c. especially not me.

Team 2: Veteran baseball hobbyists who are willing to risk ostracism and access to the Golden Goose because of

a. principles of honesty and integrity, which no longer have relevance in the hobby industry, or
b. just possibly a genuine love of baseball history and its artifacts.

Collectors have been taking sides for some time. About ten years ago Jim Crandall, a passionate and outspoken collector of cards of Grade 7 or higher, convened a meeting at his offices to ask Team 1 about "alterations." Dave Foreman, to his credit, passed around a large hand full of recolored basketball cards with remarkably sharp corners. A naive collector like myself could only gasp. I asked Doug Allen a rhetorical question -- "what percentage of the cards in the average collector's portfolio are altered?" Barry Sloate was the only person in the room asking the really tough questions -- and getting nowhere.

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Keith,
Hope you are well. I remember the meeting well, but not the questions.

So what was the upshot?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So what was the upshot?

If u cant beat em’...join em’...or leave the hobby?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So what was the upshot?

Here's what I remember: we met at Jim Crandall's office one evening at his Lehman Bros. office, and since Lehman went under in 2008, I'm guessing it took place in 2007. Attendees included Jim, myself, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Keith Thompson, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, and Michael Sarno.

I believe the gist of the meeting centered around third party grading, and Dave F. brought some cards he slabbed that day and asked us to all spend some time examining them, and then we were to grade them. Afterwards he told us some were altered, and showed us how hard it is to determine that. None of us did that well getting them all correct.

We had some other topics of discussion but I need a little help with them. I do remember Jim bought something like eight pizzas, and they were delicious. I also got into a discussion with Al and he told me he didn't like the Beatles. I wanted to clock him, but since Al is around 6' 10", I minded my manners (hi Al).

Maybe Keith or anyone else reading this remembers more of the details.

[Peter_Spaeth]

At the time were you asked not to discuss the meeting? Seems odd that neither you nor anyone else posted about it, unless I am not remembering.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's what I remember: we met at Jim Crandall's office one evening at his Lehman Bros. office, and since Lehman went under in 2008, I'm guessing it took place in 2007. Attendees included Jim, myself, Doug Allen, Dave Forman, Keith Thompson, Al Crisafulli, Frank Evanov, and I may have left out one or two others (with my apologies).

I believe the gist of the meeting centered around third party grading, and Dave F. brought some cards he slabbed that day and asked us to all spend some time examining them, and then we were to grade them. Afterwards he told us some were altered, and showed us how hard it is to determine that. None of us did that well getting them all correct.

We had some other topics of discussion but I need a little help with them. I do remember Jim bought something like eight pizzas, and they were delicious. I also got into a discussion with Al and he told me he didn't like the Beatles. I wanted to clock him, but since Al is around 6' 10", I minded my manners (hi Al).

Maybe Keith or anyone else reading this remembers more of the details.

Where were the pizzas ordered from and were they just cheese or did any have toppings. Also were these the type of slices that you had to fold or just stiff. Did you order any of the pizzas 'well done'