Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

[steve B]

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by steve B

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So as not to confuse with other grading card services and their grading scales, how about forget the numbers and use the words:

Poor, Fair, Good, Very Good, Excellent, Mint

Otherwise, novices would get confused thinking a mint card (if called a 5) was in lesser condition than a PSA 6.

Or, go the Spinal Tap direction, and use a scale from 1-11. The 11s could be 10s that also are worthy of a little sticker....

It would make a great marketing slogan for the new grading service: "Yeah, but our grades go to 11."

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

SCD had an 11 point grading scale a few years ago.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Grades that go to 11... I like it!

The slab could be all black, nothing blacker...

Maybe a pastel black...

[Fuddjcal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4louSPP3iE

This video asks the question "PSA: Incompetent or Complicit?"

you know what I think. How about you?

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Thanks for posting that Chuck. A lot of revealing information on that video.

There may be a third option other than "Incompetent or Complicit" and that may be "Indifference". I know PSA has been aware of this problem for quite a long time (at least 10 years based on my personal experience and more likely 12 years based on a reliable source who also confronted PSA) and best to my knowledge, nothing sufficient was done to fix the problem. It's become very obvious to me they have a business model where they put minimal effort into their service, put some effort into advertising and damage control, and consequently generate a lot of money and that's the bottom line. Everyone is happy: CU, CU stockholders, the card doctors and the hopelessly addicted competitive registry junkies. The one exception is the small minority of principled collectors that know about the problem and consequently sell their PSA cards and move on into some other hobby.

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

All very true...

But if we only had a way to reach and inform the “Registry Whales” of their tainted cards, it could start to turn the tide. I know that some of them wouldn’t care to know (and only see the number on the flip). But I have to believe the majority WOULD care, if they only knew. And subsequent legal action would surely ensue.

Perhaps if we ever figure out how to spread the word beyond these forums, we can finally begin to make a dent in the ever-increasing levels of corruption. Nothing will change at PSA unless their revenue stream begins to weaken.

But as long as they’re raking in the cash, there is no motivation for them to change a thing. Shareholders before customers!

100% agree Mark ! Your last statement was bottom line to the point truth!

Would like to see this Scandal in the IBD or American Greed

[bmcnutt]

The card price in this link is a price example of my distaste for card grading companies. The Beckett Book Value of this card is $6.00. But Dean's Cards is selling it as if it is a PSA 8, and the card is not even graded.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...ss!38863!US!-1

[drcy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Oddly, I think that the most reliable slab is currently BCCG.

Do they still do that?

I wonder if a grading company with a 1-5 grading scale like we sort of had in the late 70's would succeed?

My funny story is I had a tour of the Beckett facilities in Dallas, and sitting on the floor in a hallway was a box of unused holders. I joked to the grading director that I could steal those and make my own graded cards. He laughed and said "You wouldn't want those. Those are BCCC holders." He knew.

[Exhibitman]

When TPGs started I (and many others I spoke with) thought it was stupid. Dennis Purdy even wrote his prescient "Smoke Detectors Without Batteries" column in VCBC #7 in 1996. Just like opioids, however, the TPGs manufactured demand: a few companies figured out that they could make a market. Brilliant marketing with terrible blow-back.

IMO the main driver of the corruption is the PSA registry. It begins and ends with the demand created by pitting egotistical collectors against each other for the 'best' collections. That plus the TPGs' abject failure at analyzing cards (and perhaps some outright corruption) was an open door to the crap we are dealing with today.

The only solution is to stop playing their game. Put the TPGs out of business by refusing to use their services and deleting all registry sets and eventually the 'easy' money will be taken out of the hobby. Then the slimy things will slither back into the sewer and go bother the coin collectors.

Not gonna happen unfortunately: too much invested in the status quo.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Yep... spot on.

Law enforcement must come down hard on the Doctors, Shady Dealers and TPGs, if any type of meaningful change is to result from this.

Probably foolish, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

Turning $18 into $3500? Well with returns like that I'd expect a lot more crooks to give it a whirl. Wow.

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

If you look at the link on the opening post and scroll down, you'll see a 1959 Topps Eddie Miksis that went from a PSA 8 to a PSA 10. Actually the final sale was $3605.00! That's utter madness for a common card in my opinion and sadly, it's virtually a worthless card. In fact, if you look at PSA's website, in their "Lingo" directory, they define "trimmed" as follows (bold added for emphasis) and by their own admission they acknowledge trimmed cards have very little value:

"A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value."

https://www.psacard.com/resources/lingo/t/

Look for PSA to delete the reference to trimmed cards having very little value. Nothing to see here folks.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Also, the acronym TPG should now be TPH (third party holdering) as their service only offers a means of storage.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Well said Dan. The TPGs are the biggest offenders -- their fundamental job is to detect alterations; thats what they are literally paid to do. The card doctors obviously suck, but if the TPGs did their job, the incentive to doctor cards would go down significantly.

In my opinion, after the TPGs, the next largest offenders are sales outlets/auction houses, who knowingly use their platform to assist, and even participate along with, card doctors in selling altered cards while hiding behind the fact that a TPG put the card in a flip -- "thats their job, not ours".

Sorry but the fools paying incredulous sums of money for psa 10 commons are part of the problem as well!

[drcy]

It's bigger and bigger and wider and wider: New Blowout thread

And a quote from PSA's own forum: "One thing that will be important for PSA to eventually address is whether all this trimming is being missed because insufficient time is being devoted per card, or because PSA just isn’t able to detect it."

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

As I scroll through the Blowout threads, two things have become undeniably obvious: the gross ineptitude of third party grading for detecting altered cards and the staggering return on investment by the card doctors. Altering an $18 card into a $3500+ card is mind boggling and it just goes on and on.

I'm certain that the majority of the registry collectors aren't even aware of the problem, so unless law enforcement gets involved or there is a massive law suit, I believe it will just go on as business as usual and the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars worth of bad cards will just be repeatedly bought and sold and be passed on indefinitely.

Well said !! :-)

I see one of the major problems is Zero Repercussion or Fear of Prosecution to the Card Doctors. I’ve overheard a person at show saying once’s the cards are graded they’re graded I’m off the hook.

Will PSA or auction houses turn in these people?? Doubtful, why because they’re possibly in cahoots. Unless there is emails or text messages that can pin down specifics it’s going to be very difficult.

When the scandal hit everyone was balls to the wall to put doctors in jail now crickets.

I don’t know...what is everyone else’s thoughts about this.