Let's discuss conspiracies and a billion dollar fraud

steve B · #1 08-29-2019, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

I can't understand the name calling . Why are some of you so angry and concerned on how other people spend there money.
It doesn't affect me one way or another . More power to them. Some people just have way more disposable $$$ than others to,spend. They should be able to spend it anyway they want.
Not sure why it upsets you so much.
John P

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

Johnny630 · #2 08-29-2019, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

Exactly Well Said +1

I believe in the not to distant future that PSA’s Slabs/Opinions will be worth far less to the market then they are currently.

I’ve said this for years, Registry and Pop Report are two of their biggest money making marketing tools. Both are inaccurate and total BS

Mark17 · #3 08-30-2019, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

steve B · #4 08-30-2019, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't follow the logic. Assets follow the basic principle of supply and demand. Now, for example, let's say there is a specific high demand card where only 5 legitimate PSA 8s exist. That isn't many, and for high-rollers who really want one, the price, naturally, will be pretty high.

But then the Asset Doctors come along, and, using lower-graded or ungraded cards, produce another 5 PSA 8s. Now there are 10 in the market, which makes them half as scarce.

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think PSA, their numeric grading, and their registry create demand that inflates prices. But what the Doctors are doing, creating more of those higher grade cards, must have a somewhat mitigating impact, assuming the age-old concept of supply-demand is valid (and it is.)

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

Mark17 · #5 08-31-2019, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

If only it worked like that.

How many cards are harder to find that the T206 Wagner? Hundreds? How many are worth as much?

The most valuable card in the 52 Topps High number set is a double print.

The demand matters more than the supply, in most cases far more.
Even for cards that are truly rare in high grades, that shouldn't necessarily translate into higher prices for lower grades, which are simply commons.
But that's not reality.

Agree. That's why I said, you have to consider a specific asset (like a Wagner, or 1952 Mantle, or whatever. Same asset, grade, and TPG)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

steve B · #6 08-31-2019, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Doesn't it make sense that the price of an asset, all things being equal (same asset, same grade, same TPG) will be lower if 10 are in circulation, rather than 5?

I think that we're talking about different things.

The above does make sense, except for the demand side.
If there are 5 or 10 in circulation doesn't matter much if there are 100 people that really want one and can afford it. The difference between 5 and 10 may make a few people decide it's too common, but unless that becomes a big difference, the demand still far exceeds supply.

What I'm talking about is where that demand goes as the price increases.
If 100 people can afford a card at a particular grade, and there are only 5 of them, at some point, the people who can afford it a bit less will either stop wanting the card, or will accept that they can only afford the card in a lower grade. When the difference is big enough, someone who was borderline able to afford it in one grade becomes a major force driving price at a lower grade.
There are cards that I could afford when I started back in the late 70's, and back then I could have afforded a fairly nice one.
Enter grading and registries and the hobby expanding (Not necessarily all bad things) And now I would have a difficult time justifying even buying one grade 1 or A. (Most major rookie cards from the 50's, and most prewar HOFers from any set. )
The high prices for the top examples drive up the price of all the others. And in some cases, the price of different cards from the same set. (T206, 52 Topps... Both are fairly common, but sell for more than cards from tougher sets from the same era. )

JohnP0621 · #7 08-30-2019, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

It's not exactly how they spend their money, it's that they spend it on things that aren't what they're claimed to be.

Lets say a card in a 6 is 80, and in an 8 it's 200. Someone takes a 6, trims it and gets an 8... Then sells through a popular venue where possibly some of the bids aren't legit. And that fake 8 sells for 300. Hey... that just went up 50%... maybe now the 6s should be higher. Maybe not 50% higher, lets say instead of going to 120, it only goes to 100. Well, that's not so bad if I already own one, but that pricing is still a total sham.
If I don't already own one, someone just trimmed a card an potentially cost me and anyone else wanting a 6 an extra 20

Or, If I want a legit 8, and there's only say 20 of them, and nearly all have been trimmed to make fake 9s... I may not be able to buy it at all. Between two trimmers, there may be no legitimate 8s left.

Like it or not, it affects us all. And PSA is leading the parade of corruption and incompetence.

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

Jim65 · #8 08-30-2019, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

OK I get it that everyone is upset with the trimmers etc. So am I .
I was just referring to the name calling. Calling someone a D-Bag , Moron , A-Hole because they collect high end and maybe some of their cards may be altered is out of line. Save those names for the card trimmers and thieves.

JP

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

Mark17 · #9 08-30-2019, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

Reread my post. I have no problem with people who collect high end or spend massive amounts on cards, its the guys who do that and have no idea who the player is or what team he plays for. These guys will be on to the next cool thing as soon as someone tells them what that is.

These guys are total douchebags, pure and simple.

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

JohnP0621 · #10 08-30-2019, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why? And... why do you feel morally superior, to the point of judging how someone else spends their money?

Is it immoral to chase a fad, or to have less knowledge of baseball than you require?

I agree. You have no idea who these people/collectors are and yet you think that you can call out names . Some guys just have Much More money than others. Whats your beef ? Some people I know spend $200.00 for a bottle of wine while I spend $15.00 . It doesn't make me jealous nor do I care. Yet you think they are D-Bags Etc. I Guess Im just not getting your point as to your anger towards other people that you don't even know or how they spend THEIR MONEY.

John P

Peter_Spaeth · #11 08-30-2019, 08:21 AM

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Johnny630 · #12 08-30-2019, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Nothing in that earnings call makes me want to invest in his company.

Fuddjcal · #13 08-31-2019, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back to the subject at hand, y'all are worrying needlessly.

According to Joe,

As far as the other question that you had in regards to this investigation of the auction here in our industry, I can answer it very short and sweet. We don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with.

and

And we think that in the overall scheme of our business that some of this has been blown way out of proportion. But we are very confident in the services that we provide and very confident in the grading staff that we have, and so is the public

Say it ain't so Joe...after further review, the call on the field stands. It is easily a billion dollar fraud. Keep feeding the monster.

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