Analysis of current AH's rules regarding shill/internal/sketchy bidding practices

perezfan · #1 10-11-2019, 08:43 PM

Yes, and that's exactly what I want as the consignor.

As a bidder, it's a different story!

steve B · #2 10-11-2019, 10:06 PM

A local antique auction I used to go to had something similar.

They would announce just before starting that the people helping out were dealers, and were allowed to bid on items. It was mostly because without allowing them to bid they wouldn't get any qualified help. (I always figured it was because they asked friends to help since they'd be there anyway. )
Each had a specialty, and would rarely bid on any other sort of item. One was a doll dealer, and usually won. A couple of the others had shops that I'd been to and saw items for sale that they'd won a week earlier.

On the face of it it did seem a bit shady, but I never got the impression that it was anything but what it was announced as.

Fred · #3 10-11-2019, 10:48 PM

So what's the difference between AHs allowing their own employees to bid on their own lots and what Mastro (and company) did?

ValKehl · #4 10-12-2019, 12:53 AM

I read the T&Cs for all the major auction I participate in. Although I don't leave max bids very often, I NEVER leave max bids with Mile High, Heritage, and other auction houses that have similar T&Cs. But, I will leave max bids on occasion with auction houses that I consider to be very ethical AND that have T&Cs similar to REA's and LOTG's. In fact, I was traveling during the close of the recent LOTG auction, so I left a max bid on a scarce, pricey (for me) card I really wanted, even though I was pretty sure this card was consigned by LOTG's owner (I later learned that it was); and, I won this card for LESS than my max bid.

bnorth · #5 10-12-2019, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

So what's the difference between AHs allowing their own employees to bid on their own lots and what Mastro (and company) did?

Location, location, location.

Buythatcard · #6 10-12-2019, 09:49 AM

I always found it a little strange when I would place max bids on multiple items at Heritage only to get outbid on most of them at the exact same time. I always felt like it was automated.

Republicaninmass · #7 10-12-2019, 09:56 AM

"But (HA, or insert auction co here) is a billion dollar company, why would they need to do this"

Says the crowd

ullmandds · #8 10-12-2019, 10:04 AM

I was kind of hoping that this thread would lead to some of you investigating some of the other auction House sites and ultimately we can compile a grid or a list of all the auction houses and they’re bidding behaviors.

My intention was not to bash any individual auction house just to make everyone aware of who does what.

I will add to this when I have a moment.

ullmandds · #9 10-12-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

"But (HA, or insert auction co here) is a billion dollar company, why would they need to do this"

Says the crowd

Maybe to become a $2 billion auction company??

ValKehl · #10 10-12-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

"But (HA, or insert auction co here) is a billion dollar company, why would they need to do this"

Says the crowd

Because, Ted, otherwise, IMHO, lots of the great cards that get consigned to Mile High (e.g., the low-grade 1916 Holmes-to-Homes cards that just sold for insane prices), Heritage, and other auction houses with similar T&Cs would otherwise be consigned to "higher-integrity-T&C" auction houses like REA & LOTG.

perezfan · #11 10-12-2019, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

I always found it a little strange when I would place max bids on multiple items at Heritage only to get outbid on most of them at the exact same time. I always felt like it was automated.

This is exactly what happened to me in Hunt's yesterday. The auction had just opened - I bid on a whole slew of items - and was instantly outbid on every single one! I have never had that happen before.... It's as if each lot already had a ceiling bid in place. Normally you are the high bidder for at least a short period.

I know Hunt has stated they are privy to use hidden reserves on certain items... but for every single lot (dozens actually) to receive outbids instantaneously feels like a mathematical impossibility.

x2drich2000 · #12 10-12-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

This is exactly what happened to me in Hunt's yesterday. The auction had just opened - I bid on a whole slew of items - and was instantly outbid on every single one! I have never had that happen before.... It's as if each lot already had a ceiling bid in place. Normally you are the high bidder for at least a short period.

I know Hunt has stated they are privy to use hidden reserves on certain items... but for every single lot (dozens actually) to receive outbids instantaneously feels like a mathematical impossibility.

While I'm not going to say there might not be an issue with some auctions, the AH placing automatic bids early doesn't make a lot of sense since they are also then limiting the number of potential bidders putting who may put in placeholder bids. I can also say it is not uncommon for me to go through the day an auction opens and put in a bid, and sometimes a bid several increments up if the opening bid is really low, on a majority of the card lots. Often I'll put in bids on lots up to say 50% of what I believe a lot should sell for with the idea to limit the number of other bidders. As someone who is willing to buy just about anything when the price is right, I do that to keep my options open during extended bidding when i go through looking for bargains. Have 2 or 3 people like me doing that and it is easy to see how you could get outbid immediately on multiple lots.

Shoeless Moe · #13 10-12-2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

So what's the difference between AHs allowing their own employees to bid on their own lots and what Mastro (and company) did?

It's that they are telling you up front. Like when I go into a store I say very loudly when I'm shoplifting, "I'm stealing this!!!!!" then walk out the door.

As long as you say it, you're good.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #14 10-14-2019, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

So what's the difference between AHs allowing their own employees to bid on their own lots and what Mastro (and company) did?

Ostensibly these auction houses don't have knowledge of the bids of others.

ullmandds · #15 10-14-2019, 06:45 PM

It is just seeming more and more...to me...like AH's are like "the dealer" in vegas.

They have distinct advantages over the "players" and they win most of the time.

buymycards · #16 10-14-2019, 08:05 PM

Well, let me see if I have this straight:

1. I am bidding against the other bidders.

2. I am bidding against the employees of the auction house, some of whom are bidding on their own items.

3. I am bidding against the auction house, who is scooping up any good deals.

4. Items that I consign are competing for a limited amount of dollars with the auction house consigments and the employee consignments.

5. Heritage only charges me a 25% buyers fee for the privilege of of buying from them.

Sounds like a good deal to me. Where do I sign up?

Peter_Spaeth · #17 10-14-2019, 08:24 PM

I have a vision (relayed to me by a friend) of Bill Mastro back in the day at one of his own auctions, with a bid paddle.

When the house wins an auction, and of course doesn't pay a premium, how is the price reported to the community?

Fuddjcal · #18 10-16-2019, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

Well, let me see if I have this straight:

1. I am bidding against the other bidders.

2. I am bidding against the employees of the auction house, some of whom are bidding on their own items.

3. I am bidding against the auction house, who is scooping up any good deals.

4. Items that I consign are competing for a limited amount of dollars with the auction house consigments and the employee consignments.

5. Heritage only charges me a 25% buyers fee for the privilege of of buying from them.

Sounds like a good deal to me. Where do I sign up?

No, I'm not. When I was in hot and heavy acquire mode, I would never pay 25% vig to anyone anytime to buy from them EVER for anything PERIOD what a total JOKE.

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