Analysis of PWCC Vintage Auction 10/13/19

perezfan · #1 10-19-2019, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I actually saw that card and I thought it was over-graded. It has 10/90 TB centering and the corners are too rounded to deserve a PSA 4, in my opinion.

I would be too scared to spend $7400 US with PWCC after everything that's happened, but that's just me. If you're happy spending that kind of money on his cards, despite everything BODA has been doing, then that's fine. It's your money.

Man, I second that! The PWCC Mantle looks short both ways, and given PWCC's history, I would NEVER plop down that kind of cash on any of their cards. I know these cards varied a tiny bit in size, but the significant air space within the slab combined with the shady seller's practices would give me significant pause (to put it mildly).

I would start researching this card right away, to try to find some history on it. Do it before it's too late for a return. Scary stuff!

Peter_Spaeth · #2 10-19-2019, 12:25 PM

I don't love the Mantle. This one, I think, is noticeably bigger. Hopefully it's just natural variance.

samosa4u · #3 10-19-2019, 01:18 PM

I just had a discussion with Ted Zanidakis regarding this last week. According to him, the Mantle was printed on the uppermost left corner on its 72-card sheet. Therefore, some Mantle cards may be slightly narrower than 2 1/16, while others may be slightly wider than 2 1/16.

I doubt his card is trimmed, especially with those rounded corners, but just to be on the safe side, just measure it with one eye closed. I hope you have other 51' Bowmans in PSA cases, so that way you can make comparisons.

davidan · #4 10-19-2019, 04:56 PM

Thanks for all the feedback and concern (to look out for me) on the Mantle guys. Decided to do some measuring and analysis of this card and a 51 Bowman Mays I have side by side this afternoon.

I am pretty convinced the Mantle is NOT trimmed.

First of all, the cards both measure exactly under heavy magnification 3 1/4 inch wide. I will admit top to bottom the mantle seems to have slightly more air space in the case than the Mays, but under a lot of measuring (I must have done it 10 times magnified) the Mantle is maybe a 64th of an inch shorter than the Mays, and I am not even sure by that much, it's about dead on the line. They both are right at 2 1/16 tall.

Furthermore the corner wear on all 4 corners of the Mantle appear to be very natural as are the edges. With naked eye and magnification I can't see any signs of tampering and I think myself and/or PSA would have noticed something on those corners if it were off.

Regardless, and I have shared a picture of the card in hand, it's a real beauty!

I am a collector, not an investor, and I put in my bid thinking no way I'd win it at a price I was comfortable with and I got it --

It's a card I have wanted to own since I was a kid, and while I can appreciate and am not naive to the fact there are a lot of assholes out there, not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the card. It's a shame that as with a lot of things in life that all it takes is a few idiots out there to try and ruin the fun for the rest of us. So I get it.

appreciate the feedback

images

https://imgur.com/Ikkbvve

https://imgur.com/nh1213v

https://imgur.com/GE1kCUC

https://imgur.com/WrwFWEr

https://imgur.com/1PCune7

https://imgur.com/0geVWyT

#5 10-19-2019, 05:35 PM

Everything looks fine to me. Congrats on the pickup!

perezfan · #6 10-19-2019, 05:45 PM

It does look like natural corner and edge wear.... albeit pretty significant wear for a "4" grade. Great close-up shots!

Fuddjcal · #7 10-25-2019, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidan

Thanks for all the feedback and concern (to look out for me) on the Mantle guys. Decided to do some measuring and analysis of this card and a 51 Bowman Mays I have side by side this afternoon.

I am pretty convinced the Mantle is NOT trimmed.

First of all, the cards both measure exactly under heavy magnification 3 1/4 inch wide. I will admit top to bottom the mantle seems to have slightly more air space in the case than the Mays, but under a lot of measuring (I must have done it 10 times magnified) the Mantle is maybe a 64th of an inch shorter than the Mays, and I am not even sure by that much, it's about dead on the line. They both are right at 2 1/16 tall.

Furthermore the corner wear on all 4 corners of the Mantle appear to be very natural as are the edges. With naked eye and magnification I can't see any signs of tampering and I think myself and/or PSA would have noticed something on those corners if it were off.

Regardless, and I have shared a picture of the card in hand, it's a real beauty!

I am a collector, not an investor, and I put in my bid thinking no way I'd win it at a price I was comfortable with and I got it --

It's a card I have wanted to own since I was a kid, and while I can appreciate and am not naive to the fact there are a lot of assholes out there, not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the card. It's a shame that as with a lot of things in life that all it takes is a few idiots out there to try and ruin the fun for the rest of us. So I get it.

appreciate the feedback

images

https://imgur.com/Ikkbvve

https://imgur.com/nh1213v

https://imgur.com/GE1kCUC

https://imgur.com/WrwFWEr

https://imgur.com/1PCune7

https://imgur.com/0geVWyT

good for you... and you bought it from Brent Mastro, the biggest crook the baseball card hobby has ever seen. I would rather wipe my ass with a brillo pad. Enjoy it.

Stampsfan · #8 10-25-2019, 01:53 PM

Way to rain on his parade. Wow. Where is that "Respect" thread now?

What happened to "Enjoy what you buy"?

Peter_Spaeth · #9 10-19-2019, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Man, I second that! The PWCC Mantle looks short both ways, and given PWCC's history, I would NEVER plop down that kind of cash on any of their cards. I know these cards varied a tiny bit in size, but the significant air space within the slab combined with the shady seller's practices would give me significant pause (to put it mildly).

I would start researching this card right away, to try to find some history on it. Do it before it's too late for a return. Scary stuff!

The time to do the diligence is before buying. That said in this case it appears the card sold in the most recent REA and a couple of years ago on ebay.

Leon · #10 10-22-2019, 09:07 AM

Congrats on great looking cards!

I wonder how many of our members are still bidding with PWCC? My guess is ones that had previously would be a pretty high percentage.

.

1880nonsports · #11 10-22-2019, 09:41 AM

FANTASTIC CLOSEUPS!!! Didn't click all the links but card seems to be just fine. The zoom however is OFF THE CHARTS. How do you do it? I have a couple of cards I'd like to examine like that! Maybe EVERY card :-)

davidan · #12 10-24-2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

FANTASTIC CLOSEUPS!!! Didn't click all the links but card seems to be just fine. The zoom however is OFF THE CHARTS. How do you do it? I have a couple of cards I'd like to examine like that! Maybe EVERY card :-)

You guys will probably laugh but those closeups are simply the output of the iPhone X phone with some good lighting!

It's amazing what level of detail you get with these phone cameras these days.

DA

Goudey77 · #13 10-22-2019, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Congrats on great looking cards!

I wonder how many of our members are still bidding with PWCC? My guess is ones that had previously would be a pretty high percentage.

.

Leon,

My guess is that the majority are still participating if the right card comes up for auction. A lot of intelligent collectors on Net54. I'd expect them to see opportunities regardless of auction house or venue. Considering the card market in the last several years it is hard to deny that now is a great time to buy.

Rhotchkiss · #14 10-22-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Congrats on great looking cards!

I wonder how many of our members are still bidding with PWCC? My guess is ones that had previously would be a pretty high percentage.

.

I have not bid in any pwcc auction since June, and I expect that I will continue to do so until I see changes in their auctions and practices. Admittedly, they have produced no true �must haves� for me since June (a Brown Lenox), so it�s been easy for me to sit on my high horse on the sidelines. Generally speaking, Buyer or not, I am now highly skeptical of any high-grade and/or high-value card in a pwcc auction. I would have much more confidence in the card if offered by another AH. And, if I do again buy from pwcc, it will likely be super rare items and not high grade items and/or fairly common items.

perezfan · #15 10-22-2019, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I have not bid in any pwcc auction since June, and I expect that I will continue to do so until I see changes in their auctions and practices. Admittedly, they have produced no true �must haves� for me since June (a Brown Lenox), so it�s been easy for me to sit on my high horse on the sidelines. Generally speaking, Buyer or not, I am now highly skeptical of any high-grade and/or high-value card in a pwcc auction. I would have much more confidence in the card if offered by another AH. And, if I do again buy from pwcc, it will likely be super rare items and not high grade items and/or fairly common items.

For me, it's a "hard no" as well. Blowout just keeps exposing PWCC with card after card that's been altered/resubmitted with no perceptible end in sight. So I'm neither willing to take that chance, nor choose to support a company that engages in deceit.

The comment below was taken from the Better Business Bureau website, and was made back on Feb. 28 of this year. I believe that's well before the "scandal" was publicized, so this is pretty darned insightful (IMHO)...

Paul O

★★★★★
★★★★★
02/28/2019

Shady sportscard consignment service that operates as a quasi investment firm. Without formal training or education this group runs several scams that takes advantage of hobbyist. When their not asking for customers to invest in their straw built company, They�re using capital received from selling customer consignments to fund their illegal lending program to fund other customers, collecting fees and interest without proper government regulated licenses or permits. A full time �robbing Peter to pay Paul� operation. They have created meaningless standards and scales which confuse collectors into paying premiums over market value, trying to force their way into the grading market with their �eye appeal scale� which has no value and is completely subjective. By inflating prices in this way�with smoke and mirrors�they continue to expand and profit at the expense of the collector.

Leon · #16 10-25-2019, 08:39 AM

I honestly don't know how anyone can buy a really high end, graded pre war card, and not have some doubts. It is too bad that greed has made it this way. I am all for making profit and capitalism and all of that. But the fraud is just wrong. Still hoping whomever is guilty gets their just dues.

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