Hey, pennant guys

[perezfan]

Good call, Andy, on the 1915 Pan Pacific Pennant. Almost certainly, that's what it is...

As for the Chicago version, I have seen countless pennants over the decades, in which a sports team pennant shared the same image/graphics as a non-sports pennant. I have seen very specific Cleveland Indians and Detroit Tigers Pennants in which the same exact mascot was used for a zoo, national/state park, or city souvenir pennant. The companies that made these had a "library" of sorts, and utilized these images as appropriate. They did not always create a new image for every pennant and did not limit many of the images to sports.

That said... I still strongly believe the Chicago version is a Cubs Pennant. They always used burgundy for their pre-1920 pennants. The Chicago Bears came to exist in 1922, and oversized pennants were all but gone by then. As for it being a non-sports pennant, of course that remains a slight possibility. But whereas the Bear made complete sense for California (it is the California State Animal, and is prominent on the State Flag), it makes little/no sense for Chicago (other than for the Cubs). Furthermore, the Cubs used a full Bear Mascot back then, as opposed to the later cute Cubbie type mascot.

Just my 2 cents...

[perezfan]

Also...

I know this is a pennant thread, but GORGEOUS PIN, Andy...

That is some beautiful artwork and the Bear charm is just awesome!

[andypcl]

Thanks Mark, I sold a lot of 6 PPIE buttons last night on Ebay and just couldn't get myself to add this one to the lot. It's a keeper.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The companies that made these had a "library" of sorts, and utilized these images as appropriate. They did not always create a new image for every pennant and did not limit many of the images to sports.

That said... I still strongly believe the Chicago version is a Cubs Pennant. They always used burgundy for their pre-1920 pennants. The Chicago Bears came to exist in 1922, and oversized pennants were all but gone by then. As for it being a non-sports pennant, of course that remains a slight possibility. But whereas the Bear made complete sense for California (it is the California State Animal, and is prominent on the State Flag), it makes little/no sense for Chicago (other than for the Cubs).

Ditto on all that. Pennant makers definitely re-used their own artwork wherever they could. In many sales catalogues they offered their customers, they would brag about their vast collection of stock artwork you could select from. Typically, this concerned mascots. In some cases, say for something really popular, like a bear, they'd offer 2-3 different variants of the bear. One might be a realistic bear; another might be a cartoonish bear; and still another might feature a third bear posed differently or from an alternative angle.

And, you make a really good case about that Cubs pennant, Mark. I can think of no reason why you would associate a Grizzly Bear with the city of Chicago--unless you were trying to sell it outside the gates of Wrigley Field (or, was it Weeghman Park back in those days?).

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Ditto on all that. Pennant makers definitely re-used their own artwork wherever they could. In many sales catalogues they offered their customers, they would brag about their vast collection of stock artwork you could select from. Typically, this concerned mascots. In some cases, say for something really popular, like a bear, they'd offer 2-3 different variants of the bear. One might be a realistic bear; another might be a cartoonish bear; and still another might feature a third bear posed differently or from an alternative angle.

And, you make a really good case about that Cubs pennant, Mark. I can think of no reason why you would associate a Grizzly Bear with the city of Chicago--unless you were trying to sell it outside the gates of Wrigley Field (or, was it Weeghman Park back in those days?).

Hard to say! I think the Chicago Ballpark was transitioning right about the time this pennant would've been produced. Great insights!

[Domer05]

I just picked this pennant up. I'm curious if any of you PCL experts can weigh-in as to whether this may be an Oakland Oaks (or, Acorns, as they were also known as) PCL pennant; or, just a generic city of Oakland, California souvenir pennant?

The tag reads "Newman Mfg. Co. / 883 Market St. / San Francisco ". I did some research on this manufacturer and found a listing for them in a 1922 San Francisco Chamber of Commerce directory; albeit, at a different address located just around the corner.

The pennant is a standard full size at 30" in length--so, it's not oversized like many from the early part of the century. But it is entirely sewn letter; and the style of the manufacturer's logo is very consistent with those from the turn of the century. I would therefore guess this pennant came from the 1910s.

I'm also aware that the San Francisco Seals and the Oaks/Acorns were owned by the same owner back in those days; and, as a result, played many of their home games in San Francisco at Recreation Park as early as 1907. They played there off and on through the early 1920s, in fact.

So, if this is an Oaks/Acorns pennant, that might explain why it was made by a San Francisco manufacturer.

I think their team colors were also blue/white back in the 1910s, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

Anyway, penny for your thoughts?

[bocca001]

Found this Oilers pennant today at an antique mall. I'd never seen it before. The older looking helmet makes me think that it is from the early days of the Oilers.

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Found this Oilers pennant today at an antique mall. I'd never seen it before. The older looking helmet makes me think that it is from the early days of the Oilers.

Oh man...Extremely jealous. Great score. Never saw that before. I've looked in several antique malls around Houston hoping for that kind of find. No such luck.

Very cool Marc!

[bocca001]

I got the pennant and this other stuff at the Caroyln Thompson antique mall. A decent amount of sports stuff there for a mall (sorry for the non-pennant content... but there are cheerleaders).

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Found this Oilers pennant today at an antique mall. I'd never seen it before. The older looking helmet makes me think that it is from the early days of the Oilers.

That is so sweet! Gotta be one of their very first pennants (if not the first).

[bocca001]

Originally Posted by perezfan

That is so sweet! Gotta be one of their very first pennants (if not the first).

Thanks! I was excited to see it and to be able to get it for a reasonable price. Older NFL pennants (at least 49ers and Oliers) have been selling for (what seem to me) very strong prices lately and I've been an underbidder on several lately.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by bocca001

Found this Oilers pennant today at an antique mall. I'd never seen it before. The older looking helmet makes me think that it is from the early days of the Oilers.

I’m not a football guy, but that seems like a very unusual pennant. Nice find!

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I just picked this pennant up. I'm curious if any of you PCL experts can weigh-in as to whether this may be an Oakland Oaks (or, Acorns, as they were also known as) PCL pennant; or, just a generic city of Oakland, California souvenir pennant?

The tag reads "Newman Mfg. Co. / 883 Market St. / San Francisco ". I did some research on this manufacturer and found a listing for them in a 1922 San Francisco Chamber of Commerce directory; albeit, at a different address located just around the corner.

The pennant is a standard full size at 30" in length--so, it's not oversized like many from the early part of the century. But it is entirely sewn letter; and the style of the manufacturer's logo is very consistent with those from the turn of the century. I would therefore guess this pennant came from the 1910s.

I'm also aware that the San Francisco Seals and the Oaks/Acorns were owned by the same owner back in those days; and, as a result, played many of their home games in San Francisco at Recreation Park as early as 1907. They played there off and on through the early 1920s, in fact.

So, if this is an Oaks/Acorns pennant, that might explain why it was made by a San Francisco manufacturer.

I think their team colors were also blue/white back in the 1910s, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

Anyway, penny for your thoughts?

Here's my 2 cents for your penny...

I love that pennant and especially since it's labeled. 99% of my pennants are not labeled. Unfortunately, I don't think it's an Oaks pennants. My quickie research shows the early Oaks used a color scheme of green and yellow (like the Modern A's) with a bit of red in their "insignias". It wasn't until the 1950s (maybe 1940s) that they went to red and blue on white unis. I could definitely be wrong on this, though...

[Domer05]

I appreciate your two cents!

I can't dispute anything you said. I myself am skeptical of these crossover travel/baseball pennants from the early part of the century. It is highly unusual to find sewn letter pennants like mine from that era used for anything other than collegiate, travel, or advertising purposes. Professional baseball? Not so much....

I still don't know about the Oaks' uniform colors from that era. I think their colors--much like their team name and ballpark location--changed frequently during that era. Finding a color picture of their uniform from then isn't easy either. They could have been green/yellow in 1916; then blue/white in 1917. Nothing was consistent back in those days.

A few years ago a follower of this thread posted the below Oaks pennants from the same era we're talking about. It's a stunner! So good, I'm gonna re-post it in all its glory below.

Note that the uniform depicted is blue/white, much like my pennant believed to be from the same era....

So, who knows for certain, right? Certainty in this hobby isn't common either, is it?

[Fballguy]

Hardly conclusive but adding to the intrigue...This from a 2014 Ebay auction:

Rare c. 1913 felt pennant from the Oakland Oaks Baseball Team. Measures a 29 inches across and condition is VERY nice. From the collection of a 1908-1915 Minor League Baseball Player from the era and I have a couple other pennants including an Centralia pennant and a pictoral Aberdeen Washington pennant as well! There are no specific markings identifying it as baseball but most pennants of the era were like this. Considering the collection it came from I have NO doubt this was used by a baseball fan to root on the Oakland Oaks, especially since dark blue and white were the Oaks colors as well!