Ebay seller returned cracked out slab

ullmandds · #1 11-08-2019, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Right. Exactly. And we probably mostly agree that they should not cross a card they now know is altered.

But..... suppose that happened in this case? What would be the difference if PSA was the ones who cracked the card, initially thinking it would cross, then, when able to closely inspect it, saw that they could not......

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

Mark17 · #2 11-08-2019, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Obviously the right thing to do would be to inform the consigner of their findings and offer to slab the card A...at no charge...imo.

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-08-2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

We had a member here refuse to take back a card that was outed as altered even though the buyer offered to return it in the same slab he purchased it in. It happens.

bobbyw8469 · #4 11-08-2019, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

They buyer bought a GAI graded card at a discount due to the GAI holder. However, it WAS graded. Now the card is NOT in the graded holder and the seller is losing out on thousands. I'm sorry, but once the buyer cracked it out, it is his. This opens up a whole new can of worms. I would be leery of selling ANY graded card on Ebay if the outcome stands.

jfkheat · #5 11-08-2019, 03:25 PM

So, does this mean that all the buyers of cards in PRO slabs can return them because a TPG determined that they were altered?

seff · #6 11-08-2019, 03:58 PM

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.

Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.

Just my two cents.

cardsnstuff · #7 11-08-2019, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseff

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.

Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.

Just my two cents.

Actually, not true, I Still have a few hundred GAI slabs from the early days, that I personally submitted. Why haven't I reviewed them? Cost for me is the major reason.

bigfanNY · #8 11-08-2019, 05:10 PM

First let me be clear I agree that the seller had every right to return the card.
If the card had graded 1 at PSA and was not altered then I would side with the seller. The key here is the card has been altered.
Let's say this was a slabbed Autograph in the $5,000.00 range like a Mathewson cut. And was in a JSA slab and sold on Ebay or in any Auction. Then buyer decides he would rather have a PSA slab sends it in he might even have a PSA auction letter. When it arrives it looks good so they crack it and then under a fold they notice a watermark or a copyright that dates it to 1930. Now PSA knows the item is NG and sends it back. Is the buyer stuck with purchase because the case was cracked? No of course not Alterd cards and counterfeit autos are fraudulent items. And buyers should not be expected to accept them.

irishdenny · #9 11-08-2019, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dseff

Question 1:Why would any card be in a GAI holder? Never really legit.
If the Card wasn't Legit... Then Why did He Buy it?
Question 2: Why would you ever try to sell a high value card in anything but PSA or SGC?
i don't Know... Maybe He's Hungry!!!

It was clearly already sent to PSA for a cross over, and failed.
Not True, The Buyer didn't send the Card in as a Crossover, Crossovers are only done while the Card is Slabbed!
*And the Buyer took that Option Away Forever, Which means it's His Card Now!

I do not blame the buyer for returning it. It was known to be trimmed.
Yeah, Why Blame him for Cracking a Card Out that He Didn't Own?
If the Buyer Knew it was Trimmed... Why iN the H E Double Tooth Picks did He Buy the Card iN the 1st Place?

Just my two cents.

Look Closely... i answered your questions!

Dankz fir the 2 Pennies ~

Mark17 · #10 11-08-2019, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

They buyer bought a GAI graded card at a discount due to the GAI holder. However, it WAS graded. Now the card is NOT in the graded holder and the seller is losing out on thousands.

The seller is not losing out on thousands because it isn't in a GAI holder. He likely lost thousands when he, himself was duped when purchasing that doctored card in the first place.

And for the record, I do not blame the seller at all - I doubt he was the card doctor or the original submitter to GAI. He was probably the original victim here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I'm sorry, but once the buyer cracked it out, it is his. This opens up a whole new can of worms. I would be leery of selling ANY graded card on Ebay if the outcome stands.

Suppose I sell you an unopened pack of 1962 Topps baseball cards that I bought at a show years ago and believe to be authentic. You open the pack for one of those YouTube videos, and discover that there are 5 cards in the pack, but they are all from different series (which would be impossible for a genuine unopened pack.)

Are you saying you have no recourse? If you come to me for a refund, can I just say, "Well, in order for you to have uncovered the deception, you had to open them, and now that they are open, the deception is not relevant, because it is no longer an unopened pack."

Peter_Spaeth · #11 11-08-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

The seller is not losing out on thousands because it isn't in a GAI holder. He likely lost thousands when he, himself was duped when purchasing that doctored card in the first place.

And for the record, I do not blame the seller at all - I doubt he was the card doctor or the original submitter to GAI. He was probably the original victim here.

Suppose I sell you an unopened pack of 1962 Topps baseball cards that I bought at a show years ago and believe to be authentic. You open the pack for one of those YouTube videos, and discover that there are 5 cards in the pack, but they are all from different series (which would be impossible for a genuine unopened pack.)

Are you saying you have no recourse? If you come to me for a refund, can I just say, "Well, in order for you to have uncovered the deception, you had to open them, and now that they are open, the deception is not relevant, because it is no longer an unopened pack."

Yeah talk about a Catch 22. You can return the watch if it's defective, as long as you haven't taken it out of the original packaging and used it.

x2drich2000 · #12 11-08-2019, 05:30 PM

Here's where I stand, if you believe that the seller knew the card was altered because it was in a GAI graded slab, then the buyer should have also known that it was altered when he choose to purchase it in the GAI graded slab and therefore should never have purchased in the first place.

Unless the seller specifically gives you their opinion of the card, when you buy a card in any slab, whether it is PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO, GEM, or Bob's Backyard Butcher shop, you are buying the card with that authenticator's opinion. The seller is under no obligation to trust one authenticator over another. While no one else may agree, the seller may trust PRO/GAI/GEM/BOB's over PSA/SGC. By cracking the card out and returning it, the buyer has now forced their preference of authenticator on the seller and the seller can no longer sell the card as they originally did.

nsaddict · #13 11-08-2019, 05:42 PM

If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I�m in the camp you crack it out it�s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Peter_Spaeth · #14 11-08-2019, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nsaddict

If the card would have crossed as a PSA 7, would the buyer have sent the seller 5K in appreciation? Certainly not, I�m in the camp you crack it out it�s yours! Nothing to lose only gain. Total 100% BS!

Same result if you open a wax pack?

1880nonsports · #15 11-08-2019, 05:56 PM

it was all on the buyer once he cracked it out. As was mentioned you buy the card as guaranteed by the grading company when slabbed. Additionally I believe the case and card were deemed authentic and unaltered so even stretching the argument out a little - ostensibly only the grade is subjective. The buyer altered a part of the original item.

fusorcruiser · #16 11-08-2019, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

And I would agree with that.

But does that also mean the buyer, who thought he was buying a nice, unaltered asset for $5k and now has an asset in minimum grade A because it had been doctored, is stuck with it? He clearly did not receive the quality card he was expecting.

And can someone sell a doctored, slabbed card with high grade for big bucks and have no responsibility when the card is discovered to be doctored? Actually, I think that is PWCC's position, which many here have problems accepting.

I'm relatively a newbie too and I'm with the seller on this one. He sold a GAI holdered card and did not get the same in return, period. A full refund is not warranted. There is always some risk to the buyer of buying any holdered card (buy the card not the holder, right?) but especially more risk with a holdered card graded from a defunct TPG like GAI. If the buyer did not like the slabbed card which you can see both sides of clearly and returned it intact then a full refund would be appropriate all day long.

I do think the seller should have shared the ebay name of this alleged scammer so that other sellers can be protected.

Regarding PWCC... No one should yet put toolifedave, the seller, in the same boat as PWCC at all. Not even close. Do we have proof that toolifedave knew his GAI Gehrig card was altered? The magnitude of known and suspected card alterations is in a different universe. There have been many posts on Net 54 and Blowout that illustrate the alleged collusion and alignment by PWCC with alleged card bleachers/trimmers like Moser of buying, cosigning, selling, re-buying, re-cosigning, submitting, manipulating/shilling and reselling of doctored cards to make huge bucks off of unsuspecting, trusting collectors and it still seems to be going on today and everyday as shared here and on Blowout. Thanks for the opportunity to rant.

B0b Zw.e.ng

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