Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[SOX75]

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Feel free to private message me anytime you would like.

Thank You

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

That truly is an outstanding piece of investigative reporting, with staggering implications, both from a civil and criminal perspective. Presumably the FBI has been alerted to your video.

This Board has lamented on the apparent lack of knowledge of this scandal by the general collecting public, and has theorized what significantly increased public knowledge might have on the market value of high grade PSA-slabbed cards. Have you ever considered reaching out to 60 minutes or some similar journalistic outlet about this matter? If a national news company was to air your video, augmented by additional reporting, that could generate public exposure of sufficient magnitude to be a catalyst to significantly advance the weeding out this fraud and bringing to justice those involved.

so far no implications from the civil perspective considering how this has rocked the hobby as some have said. All we hear about is FBI this and that. Videos like yours should help the cause

We should have a Mt. Rushmore for Maraca cards..with a mexican theme....maybe use famous mexican moutain range..

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Impressive video Keith! Keep up the great work!

[Peter_Spaeth]

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Huh

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Then again, they may not.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, they may not.

right besides a few things..most things in life are always uncertain. Can only go by the cards (trimmed or not) that are dealt

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Have you read the Eagle Eye Joe thread about BGS and Joe Clemons. I bet you'd have a better winnable case with that one.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

I have no doubt that PSA fights tooth and nail in individual cases to justify not paying people, but I have serious doubt that they have disclaimed the guarantee totally.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Peter your impression which I believe to be 100% true is the reason nothing will change....the altering businesses will continue, PSA will will continue to thrive, the collectors are the last thing PSA Cares About.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I think "done much" is the key phrase here. I have bought graded cards (though not many), BUT I didn't buy the cards because they were graded. I will still buy cards that are graded but will scrutinize and make appropriate offers on them as if they weren't. I think quite a few people here are at least of the same mind set. That's not much, but I am looking at the cards more closely and not enamored by someone else's opinion.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

[mq711]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I’m not a big fish but haven’t submitted anything to PSA nor purchased anything from PWCC since I found out about this scandal. Decided to work on a midgrade, raw 1960s set just to keep my interest in the hobby alive.

Perfect example of my feelings is a 1969 Mays PSA 9 on EBay, all I can see is how short the card is in the holder (over 1/16 inch or 1cm) and thus wouldn’t buy it at any price.

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.