Hall of Fame voting and WWII

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

Very well said. I do think at some point he'll get in, but it'll take voters with enough understanding of everything you''ve just stated.

[Exhibitman]

What Kenny said. Travis was a speedster whose game was mobility and disruption; damage his feet and it is over, as was the case. He paid the price and would make a reasonable addition to the Hall. At least I'd have no issues with it, which is great because I know how important my views are to the HOF committee.

[conor912]

I love how we’re now debating which war injuries are Hall worthy

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Sorry Ted, but the other Ted was notorious for wanting EVERYONE in the hall of fame with him. I'd value the opinion of a LOT of people more than Williams. Frankly I'd take your word over Ted's lol. For my money Alvin Dark belongs in the Hall before Phil. Phil was a plus defender (but no Ozzie Smith, or even Pee Wee Reese) and only had one exceptional offensive season and several above average. Even if you give him his war years back he barely would've cleared 2000 hits.

I'm definitely one of those guys who wishes the Hall was more exclusive. Rizzuto was a very good player with flashes of greatness, but if he had played in Cleveland he wouldn't be in the Hall.

Unlike some other people here though I can agree to cordially disagree!

Happy Holidays!

Scott

"Agree, to disagree".....the most phony phrase in this "new-speak" world. I hate that phrase. What the hell does it actually mean ? Whatever, I totally disagree with you, ole buddy.

I normally do not discuss BB topics with any one who did not experience the subject matter in real-time. Because there really are no Stats, hearsay, etc., etc. that can substitute for
having seen the players perform. I was an avid BB fan growing up in the late 1940's - 1950's. As a young guy, I went to all three New York Stadiums and watched a lot of BB on TV.
The Yankees "dynasty" (1949 - 1953) was an amazing thing to see. It is an achievement in BB which I doubt will ever be repeated. It began with Casey Stengel in 1949 (which the
phony NY media declared him a "clown"). Sure, Casey was an underrated Manager in the Majors and the Minors in the past. However, given the right ballplayers he became a Base-
ball genius.
This I can attest to from having lengthy conversations with Tommy Henrich, Johnny Mize, and Phil Rizzuto. I was on a flight to Chicago in April of 1984 with Phil Rizzuto (he invited
me to sit in 1st Class with him). The common theme from these three ballplayers was that Stengel inspired them to play at their best. Indeed Rizzuto in 1949 scored 110 Runs and
drove in 65 Runs (pretty good for a Lead-Off batter). Well, the MVP Committee thought enough of Phil that he came in 2nd that year (Ted Williams was awarded MVP).
In 1950, Rizzuto was awarded the MVP. His numbers in 1950 = 200 Hits, BA = .324, 125 Runs, 66 RBI's, 92 BB, 7 HR's (and only 39 KO's). Phil's defensive play was outstanding.

Scott, all those years of BB are very clear in my mind. You will find out as you get to be my age that your mind starts reverting back to your youth. And you recall a lot of this stuff
as it may have occurred recently. I'll end with this...….

Here's a Wirephoto of the Oct 1st 1949 Play-Off game against Boston. Allie Reynolds just didn't have it that day, so Casey Stengel brings in the Yankees ace reliever Joe Page in the
3rd inning. Page completely shuts-down the Red Sox batters, allowing only one Hit in 6 2/3rds innings. And, Johnny Lindell drives a long HR into the Left Field seats of Yankee Sta-
dium to win game. I bring this particular event to you to as an example of Baseball games which I still clearly remember from 70 years ago.



Johnny Lindell …….……………………….…………….. Joe Page …………………………. Joe DiMaggio



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Ted,

I just meant that in a day and age when people seem to think anyone who disagrees with them is at best a substandard intellect, and at worst sub-human, I just think of the person in question as a friend who sees things differently from me. It's not some reason to hold a grudge or think less of someone. Probably bordering on the political now so I'll stop.

[G1911]

I would argue that the Hall has actually done a pretty good job handling WWII (though they have not handled plenty of other things well).

Travis is the most glaring example of a career ruined by WWII, but unlike most of the others, this is more because it ruined his career entirely, instead of just missing X number of years. I'm not sure I would vote for someone, based on a projection of what they might have done if something that did happen did not actually happen, but I sure wouldn't be opposed to giving him a plaque. It becomes a slippery slope to me. What if Herb Score wasn't injured? He projected to have some great seasons.


I don't think anyone else who missed time really looks like a hall of famer, even giving them credit for those years and assuming they would have played at a very high level. Dom Dimmaggio's career is still short, and his extremely low OPS+ (by a hall of fame standard) doesn't indicate he was really all that great of a batter, which is his key. I don't think Dom would be in the conversation if his last name was different.


I think Rizzuto is a lower-quality Hall of Famer, but he was elected more for defense, not offense. His detractors make too much of his batting average and not enough of his glove. His supporters make too much of the fact that he wore Yankee pinstripes and was popular. Bill James, a detractor of Rizzuto's for a long time, ran a statistical study in the Historical Baseball Abstract from 2001, that concluded that Rizzuto was the greatest SS at turning the double play in baseball history. Obviously this is one statistical study, projecting what the expected double plays for a team would be and comparing to what they actually did, I don't recall all the details. Defensive statistics remain weak, and it does seem to have been the opinion at the time that he was a truly elite level defensive player at the second-most important defensive position. I can see the argument here, though I still think he rates pretty low on the Hall of Fame scale, but I don't think he was a truly terrible selection. If Al Dark was a Yankee and Rizzuto played for the A's, it's pretty clear who would be in the hall of fame.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by G1911

I would argue that the Hall has actually done a pretty good job handling WWII (though they have not handled plenty of other things well).

Travis is the most glaring example of a career ruined by WWII, but unlike most of the others, this is more because it ruined his career entirely, instead of just missing X number of years. I'm not sure I would vote for someone, based on a projection of what they might have done if something that did happen did not actually happen, but I sure wouldn't be opposed to giving him a plaque. It becomes a slippery slope to me. What if Herb Score wasn't injured? He projected to have some great seasons.


I don't think anyone else who missed time really looks like a hall of famer, even giving them credit for those years and assuming they would have played at a very high level. Dom Dimmaggio's career is still short, and his extremely low OPS+ (by a hall of fame standard) doesn't indicate he was really all that great of a batter, which is his key. I don't think Dom would be in the conversation if his last name was different.


I think Rizzuto is a lower-quality Hall of Famer, but he was elected more for defense, not offense. His detractors make too much of his batting average and not enough of his glove. His supporters make too much of the fact that he wore Yankee pinstripes and was popular. Bill James, a detractor of Rizzuto's for a long time, ran a statistical study in the Historical Baseball Abstract from 2001, that concluded that Rizzuto was the greatest SS at turning the double play in baseball history. Obviously this is one statistical study, projecting what the expected double plays for a team would be and comparing to what they actually did, I don't recall all the details. Defensive statistics remain weak, and it does seem to have been the opinion at the time that he was a truly elite level defensive player at the second-most important defensive position. I can see the argument here, though I still think he rates pretty low on the Hall of Fame scale, but I don't think he was a truly terrible selection. If Al Dark was a Yankee and Rizzuto played for the A's, it's pretty clear who would be in the hall of fame.

I would argue (and have done so) that being hurt playing baseball is completely different than being hurt serving your country. On the one hand, playing baseball is entirely voluntary. Being drafted into the service for WWII was not. Being hurt playing in the profession you chose is substantially different, IMO, than being hurt doing something that you had no choice other than to do. As I understand it, Travis never resented having his career ruined by being drafted, which is true of most of the greatest generation. But the fact remains that he did, as a result of events over which he had no choice.

Herb Score had great projections until he got hurt doing what he had chosen to do. Cecil Travis had great projections until he was hurt doing what he was required to do by his country. To my way of thinking, there is a significant difference between the two, and it really bothers me that he gets next to no recognition for the sacrifice that he made. There really isn't any slippery slope in my estimation, because he is the only potentially HOF worthy candidate I can think of who had to make that sacrifice.