Hall of Fame voting and WWII

[packs]

I could not disagree more. You're talking about years when Travis was 19 to 22 years old. Those are years a lot of people are still in the minor leagues.

From age 23 to 27, his career peak, he hit 332 and his OPS+ rose every year with the exception of his age 25 season. He also began to receive MVP votes in 4 of those 5 seasons, finishing 6th the year before he entered the service.

You have to make a decision when it comes to Travis and what his war injury meant to his career. It either derailed a HOF career or it didn't. It doesn't make much sense to debate what he did while he was 19 to 22 years old.

[rats60]

Travis still only had 1 season of OPS+ of more than 120. During those first 9 years, Arky Vaughan had an OPS + of 133 or more 8 of 9 seasons, 119 in the 9th, with a high of 190. Joe Cronin had an OPS+ over 120 8 of 12 seasons 1930-41. Luke Appling had 3 seasons of OPS+ over 120 before the war and 3 more after. You can't put a guy in the HOF based on 1 quality season. It is unfortunate he lost the chance to do more 1942-1945, but we can't assume those years would be like 1941 instead of 1933-1940.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/4d5ab420

Travis developed frostbite to two toes of his left foot and spent time in a hospital in Metz, France, before rejoining his unit. Onaway Division pursued Hitler's army on into Germany and, following the surrender of Germany in May 1945, remained as part of the occupying forces. Travis managed a baseball team for the 76th that participated in a European Theater tournament.

He was training for reassignment to the Pacific Theater when the Japanese surrendered, ending the war.

Frost bite on 2 toes, not threatening both feet. After he was able to go back to military service after.

"I was a good player, but I wasn't a great one,"

Travis didn't consider himself a HOFer. He never received a HOF vote.

http://baseballegg.com/2017/09/06/th...-cecil-travis/

“My problem when I got back to baseball was my timing,” said Travis, who batted .252 in 1946, “I could never seem to get it back the way it was after laying out so long.”

Travis' war injury wasn't the main reason for his decline.

bigfanNY Great subject I would be very happy if the Hall of Fame recognized every Major Leauge player who served in any branch of the service during War time.

I agree with this. In particular those that served in the war theater like Travis.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Travis still only had 1 season of OPS+ of more than 120. During those first 9 years, Arky Vaughan had an OPS + of 133 or more 8 of 9 seasons, 119 in the 9th, with a high of 190. Joe Cronin had an OPS+ over 120 8 of 12 seasons 1930-41. Luke Appling had 3 seasons of OPS+ over 120 before the war and 3 more after. You can't put a guy in the HOF based on 1 quality season.

Is that true, though? How do you explain Dizzy Dean's inclusion? Is he in for any other reason than winning 30 games once? I know he led the league in strike outs 4 times, but Sam McDowell did him one better at 5 times and he's not in the HOF. He didn't win 30 games either. Or how about old Hack Wilson?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

Is that true, though? How do you explain Dizzy Dean's inclusion? Is he in for any other reason than winning 30 games once? I know he led the league in strike outs 4 times, but Sam McDowell did him one better at 5 times and he's not in the HOF. He didn't win 30 games either. Or how about old Hack Wilson?

Dean won a MVP Award and was 2nd twice. I know you don't like WAR but he was top 4 in WAR for pitchers for 6 consecutive seasons. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th ERA, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th Wins, 1st, 4th, 4th W-L%, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th WHIP, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 6th K/9, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd IP, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 8th Ks, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 8th, 8th CG, 1st, 1st, 4th, 6th Shutouts. Dean's adjusted ERA is 131, 42nd all time better than Carl Hubbell, Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver and many other HOF Pitchers. He had at a minimum 6 HOF quality seasons.

Hack Wilson has a career OPS+ 144, 48th all time, including 7 seasons of OPS+ of at least 129 (6 of at least 140) with a high 177. He had at least 6 HOF quality seasons.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Dean won a MVP Award and was 2nd twice. I know you don't like WAR but he was top 4 in WAR for pitchers for 6 consecutive seasons. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th ERA, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th Wins, 1st, 4th, 4th W-L%, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th WHIP, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 6th K/9, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd IP, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 8th Ks, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 8th, 8th CG, 1st, 1st, 4th, 6th Shutouts. Dean's adjusted ERA is 131, 42nd all time better than Carl Hubbell, Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver and many other HOF Pitchers. He had at a minimum 6 HOF quality seasons.

Hack Wilson has a career OPS+ 144, 48th all time, including 7 seasons of OPS+ of at least 129 (6 of at least 140) with a high 177. He had at least 6 HOF quality seasons.

OK, but why are they in? Is Dean in for those reasons or is Dean in because he won 30 games? Johan Santana has a higher adjusted ERA than he does and two Cy Youngs, 3 ERA titles to Dean's zero, three consecutive strike out crowns to Dean's 4, but he's not even close to being considered a HOFer.

Is Wilson in because of his record setting rbi season or not?

Wilson was not elected until 1979, so I highly doubt those numbers you just brought up jumped out to anyone, especially since they wouldn't have heard of OPS.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

OK, but why are they in? Is Dean in for those reasons or is Dean in because he won 30 games? Is Wilson in because of his record setting rbi season or not?

Wilson was not elected until 1979, so I highly doubt those numbers you just brought up jumped out to anyone, especially since they wouldn't have heard of OPS.

The answer is "No". Those milestones obviously helped, but if Wilson and Dean had had only 1 excellent season, they almost certainly would not have been elected. Wilson winning 4 home run crowns as well as setting that major record, is what did it. Dean's other achievements are highlighted above by Rats. Neither are strong hall of famers, but they had many more accomplishments and hall of fame level seasons than Travis' 1.

I cannot think of a player who is in the hall of fame purely on the strength of a single season, even among the worst they have chosen.

[packs]

Originally Posted by G1911

The answer is "No". Those milestones obviously helped, but if Wilson and Dean had had only 1 excellent season, they almost certainly would not have been elected. Wilson winning 4 home run crowns as well as setting that major record, is what did it. Dean's other achievements are highlighted above by Rats. Neither are strong hall of famers, but they had many more accomplishments and hall of fame level seasons than Travis' 1.

I cannot think of a player who is in the hall of fame purely on the strength of a single season, even among the worst they have chosen.

What makes Dean a HOFer and not Johan Santana if not his 30 wins?

And is Jack Chesbro in the HOF for any other reason than his 41 win season?

Here's one more for you: Albert Belle and Hack Wilson have pretty similar numbers, don't they? Difference in WAR is negligible, OPS+ is exactly the same, whereas Hack put up 2 seasons with an OPS over 1000, Belle put up 4, including 3 in a row. Hack's single season high for OPS+ was 177. Belle's was 194.

However, only one of the two players set a single season rbi record and that player is in the HOF.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

I could not disagree more. You're talking about years when Travis was 19 to 22 years old. Those are years a lot of people are still in the minor leagues.

From age 23 to 27, his career peak, he hit 332 and his OPS+ rose every year with the exception of his age 25 season. He also began to receive MVP votes in 4 of those 5 seasons, finishing 6th the year before he entered the service.

You have to make a decision when it comes to Travis and what his war injury meant to his career. It either derailed a HOF career or it didn't. It doesn't make much sense to debate what he did while he was 19 to 22 years old.

You would have a point if I did focus on his age 19-22 seasons. However, that is clearly false if you read what I wrote. I included all of his career and broke them into groups based on OPS+, a pretty normal standard to evaluate contextual offensive production, as Travis was not an elite defender and his hall of fame case is based on a theory that his ONLY hall of fame season is the player he truly was.

You say his OPS+ rose every year from age 23 to 27, except age 25. This is true, but only one of them was a hall of fame season. He posted OPS+'s of 113, 116, 95, 120, 154. 113-120 is pretty good, but it is not a hall of fame level season, or really close to it. He had one elite level season at age 27.

To get Travis to the hall you have to make 2 assumptions, 1) a player can be a hall of Famer for things that did not actually happen in the real world and 2) His 1941 season defines his theoretical career, and all of his other 11 years in Major League Baseball do not. I do not think the first is a logical one to make, for the reasons stated earlier, and the second does not seem to me to be a very good one either, as it relies on ignoring quite a bit of reality to create an alternate career in which only his best exists.