"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

[Eric72]

Quick version:

Some people learned that they could get doctored cards into graded holders and sell them for massive profits. We’re probably only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Johnny630]

Remember this PSA is Teflon. Accept no accountability they just offer an opinion. How can they be held responsible they can’t. Pop Report and Registry Have People Brainwashed. They Will Stay Number 1.....this will pass but collateral damage will happens for a period of time for most graded cards.

My big Key Point that interests me the most is

PSA Invitationals held twice or quarterly a year, One On One meetings with graders of your cards to “discuss”????

Vault and Major Market Manipulation Starting late 2013

My Key Bullet Points to Research

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

[swarmee]

The stock piece is really a red herring, IMO. The majority of those stock sales were likely to cover taxes on his other stocks and income. It may look bad, but really isn't.
The declaration during a stockholder's teleconference that the grading scandals is immaterial to their business/shareholders is ridiculous. PSA is getting the biggest brunt of it because their slabs sell for the most, and their numbering scheme is easy to determine which order the cards were graded in, for the most part.
Beckett is getting blamed for favoritism by rewarding a single submitter with like 25% of all BGS 10 Pristines and 10 Black Labels given out in the last couple of years. But since they don't have a "grade guarantee", the buyers who got hosed with trimmed cards in Beckett slabs don't really have anywhere to get a refund.

[egbeachley]

Here is the best summary I have heard.

You are more likely to receive an altered card if purchased in a PSA slab than if you purchased it raw.

[Tyruscobb]

Besides the card doctoring, 2019 also revealed the artificial pumping that occurs. A certain company or companies was/were allegedly reporting sales for market appearances.

It/they would report that card X sold for Y price. However, the “winning” bidder would not actually pay. Thus, the final sale price was not legit and actually realized.

This makes the market/demand appear stronger than reality and creates artificial prices. Possibly also related to shill bidding.

We are seeing just the iceberg’s tip. I hope the FBI is building it’s cases.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them. The number of altered/numerically slabbed cards is now well into the thousands, with values totaling tens of millions of dollars. And only a tiny percentage of the tainted card pool has been revealed to date. It is quite difficult and time consuming to fully research and reveal these alterations. So it's still the tip of the iceberg, as many have stated.

Hopefully the FBI (who's been investigating this for months) will clear up the incompetence/complicity question, and will issue arrests commensurate with the level of fraud committed.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them...

IMO You've hit the nail on the head. No matter which one this is, it's disgusting that they are either:
a. Horrible at their job
b. Outright thieves

Not sure which one I am actually hoping for...

[seff]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

If PSA rejects it then you can be sure it's altered....

I would think the TPG names could be interchangeable in what is written above.

No one is perfect? Yeah, but you'd hope that when you start a business of being a TPG service, that you'd at least get the first card right (or at least the first few).

[cammb]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Who says that?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by seff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Really what you are saying is that you don't care that your cards are altered as long as somebody will grade them eventually (at least three submissions for each of the cards mentioned in your post).

When you sell those two cards your line will be "graded by SGC" with no mention of the two rejections.

YOU are what is wrong with what many of us still consider a hobby.

I don't know you, but I don't like you.

Doug "don't take it personally, I don't like very many people" Goodman

[jbsports33]

Phil,

Just keep it simple, be smart about your buying and keep up with the news enough to make the right moves buying cards. Do not let bad apples in the hobby keep you from your enjoyment of collecting. Good Luck!

Net54 and https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/ are great resources to keep you up to date!

Jimmy