Jackie Robinson/Willie Mays

Mark70Z · #1 01-15-2020, 10:45 AM

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he�s not very nice off the field. I wouldn�t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn�t matter how good he was on the field.

Phil68 · #2 01-15-2020, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he’s not very nice off the field. I wouldn’t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn’t matter how good he was on the field.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what, exactly, would be the issue(s)? When did you have your encounter with Willie Mays?

Mark70Z · #3 01-15-2020, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil68

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you but what, exactly, would be the issue(s)? When did you have your encounter with Willie Mays?

Each and every time at shows. Sold off stuff collected of his years ago. Also, witnessing him treating others badly as well.

Now, I don�t have a problem with someone else collecting Mays. He was a great player and is still widely collected.

vintagebaseballcardguy · #4 01-15-2020, 11:31 AM

Good conversation, guys! Jackie Robinson is huge in baseball terms, and really transcends the game itself. Mays may have been the most gifted ever, but he somehow doesn't transcend the way Robinson does for most people. Add to that the surly nature Mays often projected, and it seems to diminish his popularity.

egri · #5 01-15-2020, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

Plausible reason (at least from my perspective) = he�s not very nice off the field. I wouldn�t collect any of his stuff myself just for that reason; doesn�t matter how good he was on the field.

I agree (to an extent; I had to collect Mays for my 1953 Topps project but probably wouldn�t have otherwise). I think Mays outliving Mantle has hurt his collectibility. I�ve heard stories that sometimes Mantle could be a jerk, but they are in the minority, and he hasn�t been a jerk to anyone since 1995. Mays was a jerk to somebody yesterday. Mays is chasing a ghost.

As for OP�s question, Robinson, for the reasons others have mentioned.

samosa4u · #6 01-15-2020, 12:53 PM

Mark,

Willie Mays' behavior off the field has nothing to do with the value (or future value) of his cards. Mantle behaved even worse than he did, but people forgave him.

I still think that having only one ring is what hurt Mays the most. It also didn't help that he went to San Francisco. If he had remained in New York and had won five championships, then his cards would definitely be more sought-after today.

I also agree with many of the reasons given here regarding Jackie being the better investment. He will definitely be discussed for a long, long time.

Gr8Beldini · #7 01-15-2020, 04:51 PM

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

JollyElm · #8 01-15-2020, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277906

Volod · #9 01-15-2020, 08:00 PM

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

Bigdaddy · #10 01-16-2020, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volod

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

Volod · #11 01-17-2020, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

I've also thought about it quite often, and the one factor that always stumps me is the NY aspect of it. Of course, it's entirely conjecture, but does anyone imagine that if Bill Veeck had brought Larry up at the same time Rickey elevated Jackie, their historical significance - not to mention their card values - would be equal today? Or do you think that if the Indians opened their season on a Tuesday and the Dodgers opened on the next day, it would be different today?

Empty77 · #12 01-18-2020, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

. . .Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue. . .

Disagree. Everyone knows the second one down was Buzz Lightyear.

Uncle Miltie · #13 02-25-2020, 09:41 PM

Larry Doby felt he was a better player than Jackie Robinson, and he was probably right. Others of the time shared his opinion as well, but Jackie was ex-military and a college man, which made him a better candidate for Branch Rickey. Larry Doby suffered greatly, perhaps as much Jackie Robinson, but in comparison he is not regarded in the same light. Almost all the Cleveland players did not want Larry on the team, especially Eddie Robinson whose behavior toward Doby during that season caused him to be traded the following year.

cardsagain74 · #14 02-25-2020, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Miltie

Larry Doby felt he was a better player than Jackie Robinson, and he was probably right. Others of the time shared his opinion as well, but Jackie was ex-military and a college man, which made him a better candidate for Branch Rickey. Larry Doby suffered greatly, perhaps as much Jackie Robinson, but in comparison he is not regarded in the same light. Almost all the Cleveland players did not want Larry on the team, especially Eddie Robinson whose behavior toward Doby during that season caused him to be traded the following year.

I'm gonna have to side with Robinson again here. Both guys have very similar career offensive production, but Robinson was much better defensively than Doby, and Doby played mostly in his prime years in the majors (while Robinson was late 20s to late 30s then).

cardsagain74 · #15 01-15-2020, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

" Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines.

This is nowhere near true. While Robinson's numbers alone obviously don't merit legendary status, he still had a career OPS of almost .900 and was a great second baseman. Raines hit with less pop and couldn't catch a cold in the outfield. He was obviously a much better base stealer, but that's it.

Also, Robinson's WAR per season is about the same as Mantle and Aaron. Yeah he didn't do it for as long, but he also missed most of his 20s. It's very debatable how iconic he is, but he was much better than any typical bottom tier HOFer

MarcosCards · #16 01-18-2020, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend.

Woah, this reference sent me on a Google search for information on Mr. Dalkowski. I thought I knew a lot about the 1963 set � but I didn�t know about this �iconic� card.

tonyo · #17 01-19-2020, 05:55 AM

As to the OP question, I don't typically follow pricing trends, but my initial gut feel is Jackie better value long term due to his place in American History, but then like the OP .....a few seconds later I think " I don't know about that"

*I think* Willie's cards are hanging in there above Jackie's now days despite his current apparent surly nature.

Personally, I've been a Mays-the-baseball-player fan since I started collecting and reading up on baseball history back in second grade. He does have an ~~iconic~~ well-known, magical moment in baseball ("The Catch"), He's part of a song that will likely last among baseball history clips (Willie, Mickey, and the Duke), he had a cool, friendly nick-name, I'm probably wrong on this one, but my perception all these years has been he was one of the first to combine big HR & big SB numbers and generally speaking he has good looking cards and photos. (61 topps not withstanding).

It's unfortunate to read how miserable he has become, and believe me if I had a similar encounter, my opinion of his cards would probably plummet as well.

But it's probably likely that it's a small percentage of collectors that know of his public-manner in retirement. I've read pretty often how the net54 community is a small percent of the actual collecting community, even though it seems like the entire collecting universe to me. Probably the same for autograph seekers.

I suspect it's possible that future collectors may hear of his rudeness at signings and attribute it to "grumpy old man" syndrome.

On the other hand, I always liked DiMaggio-the-player but read that Robert Cramer book about 5 years ago and came away with a distaste for him as a person. Still like his cards and images though.

I'm curious if there are books written about Mays that depict him as unlikeable off the field? or did anyone here have encounters with him in his playing days? Was he a jerk in his 20's ,30's and 40's?

jchcollins · #18 01-25-2020, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarcosCards

Woah, this reference sent me on a Google search for information on Mr. Dalkowski. I thought I knew a lot about the 1963 set � but I didn�t know about this �iconic� card.

I love the �63 Dalkowski if for no other reason than his minor league stats on the back: 1099 K�s, 1136 BB�s in 697 innings pitched.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mark70Z · #19 01-15-2020, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

Mark,

Willie Mays' behavior off the field has nothing to do with the value (or future value) of his cards.

I disagree.

brian1961 · #20 01-17-2020, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark70Z

I disagree.

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

packs · #21 01-17-2020, 01:29 PM

Agree it will always be Jackie. I'm sorry to all the Mays fans but I don't get the impression anyone really cares about him. Mike Trout is called the next Mickey Mantle, not the next Willie Mays. Even Jasson Dominguez is being compared to Mickey Mantle, not Willie Mays. There isn't a Willie Mays award. Being that Mays wasn't Robinson in a historical sense, it's only a matter of time before he fades into HOFer obscurity.

Some people might suggest race has something to do with this. But I offer personality instead. Hank Aaron is revered beyond reverence. Willie is a shut in nobody ever sees anywhere and it's probably because he's not invited.

ALBB · #22 01-17-2020, 01:50 PM

Wow,
I would think it would be very difficult to be a card collector..and refuse to collect any cards of Mays

I dont think Ive ever had a thought like that cross my mind - for ex- working on a 60 F set...but Cobb was a racist..so I dont want his card in my set , or Steve Carlton refused to sign for me...so that card is missing from my 71T set ??

packs · #23 01-17-2020, 01:53 PM

There's been a lot of revisionist history done lately about Cobb's actual life. If you do some research on him you'll find Ty Cobb's thoughts on African Americans in baseball:

"Certainly it is O.K. for them to play," he said, "I see no reason in the world why we shouldn't compete with colored athletes as long as they conduct themselves with politeness and gentility. Let me say also that no white man has the right to be less of a gentleman than a colored man, in my book that goes not only for baseball but in all walks of life.”

That quote is from 1952.

You'll also find that Ty Cobb established the Ty Cobb Educational Foundation which has been and still is a tremendous financial resource for African American students in Georgia.

Mark70Z · #24 01-17-2020, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

Brian,

Thanks; glad someone else understands and is able to put it into words far better than I ever could.

brian1961 · #25 01-19-2020, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian1961

I also feel the same way, Mark. It's not about Willie's statistics, it's not about Willie's awards, and it's not about Willie's one ring. Again and again and again, Willie Mays's rude, foul, repulsive behavior trumped everything to the little boy living within us collectors---who paid very handsomely to meet Say Hey and get his autographed----only to be treated so poorly, and be stabbed with a excruciatingly bad memory that will last the rest of our lives.

"Hey, I got a '53 Topps Willie Mays in PSA 10 Gem Mint condition! Wanna buy it for $XXX,XXX?

Sorry; I wouldn't want the card if you gave it to me. --- Brian Powell

I wanted to clarify my on the surface outrageous example of refusing what would normally be a very desirable Willie Mays baseball card. I don't collect regular issue Topps baseball sets, and have not for over 50 years. As a tween and teen, when I was interested in collecting the entire 598 - 609 card Topps set, you better believe I wanted Willie Mays. Back then, I liked Willie. He wasn't my favorite player in say, 1967; my favorite player in those years was Ernie Banks. I lived in the suburbs of Chicago, and rooted for the Cubs and Sox. As a kid collecting Topps, it was always a thrill to get Willie Mays's card.

It wasn't until the mid-to-late 1980s, when I'd re-entered the adult hobby, that I began to have intense negative feelings towards Say Hey. I'd begun subscribing to SPORTS COLLECTORS DIGEST. At this time it was the largest and most significant newspaper / magazine in the hobby. Tons of ads, auctions, and superb feature articles on players of the past. Once in a blue moon, they ran a feature on my favorite kind of cards---post-war regional / food issues.

At this time, SCD ran a feature written by a free-lance photographer and his miserable experience trying to interview Willie Mays. Once Mays ascertained that the fellow was a free-lance writer, the meeting went deep south. Willie went out of his way to be rude, caustic, antagonistic, and thoroughly uncooperative. At this same time, he was polite and helpful to a regular employed beat reporter.

Being a some-time writer, I was bewildered and shocked at how Willie could be so willing to work with the beat reporter, but then verbally, emotionally, mentally, and psychologically criticize the free-lance writer.

Now, the lambasted writer did not tear into Willie Mays, and make pronouncements about his character, let alone race. Not at all.

He simply wrote his recollections and Willie's caustic responses to him (due to the live recorder he had going for the hoped for interview). He simply conveyed the sequence of events of his sad escapade, and Willie's words to him. The writer expressed his feelings of bewildered sadness and hurt, but again, did not tear into Willie as a man.

He didn't need to.

In the ensuing years, I began seeing occasional reports of the foul behavior of Mr. Mays on the autograph show circuit. A full 90% of the comments on Willie were negative. Willie Mays really "tried hard" to earn himself a nasty reputation on the show circuit, it seemed. Guys, gals, I know there are people who are rude, demanding autograph seekers. However, at the many shows Willie appeared, with the promoters charging what would be a day's wage or more for those paying to meet Say Hey and get his autograph, I'm rather certain the autograph seeker would be on his best behavior. Remember this, FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, THEY ADORED WILLIE AS KIDS, TEENS, AND YOUNG ADULTS. HE WAS THEIR HERO, OR AT LEAST ONE OF THEIR HEROES.

Then, to have a surly Willie Mays treat them so disgracefully and shamefully, it is a wonder one them didn't ....... I better not say it. None of us would like to read it or actually do it.

After reading that feature in SCD, I wound up selling off most of my best Willie Mays cards. The only one I regretted parting with was my 1960 Topps. I rather like that issue and was working towards completing it in the mid-1970s. Besides, Willie looks great on his 1960 Topps. So, I guess I haven't tried to complete a set for over 30 years! As for the other cards, no, I have never missed them.

I now turn to the matter of whether the foul behavior of Willie Mays has impacted the values of his cards today.

I submit to youse guys and gals two glaring examples.

First, on April 14, 2019, esteemed LOVE OF THE GAME auctions offered a 1967 Coca-Cola premium of Willie Mays, graded no less than PSA 10 GEM MINT. This 1 of 1 rarity would normally be a prized piece in a Mays card collection. However, the expression of Willie on the card is most disappointing. I don't know what happened, of course, but it honestly looks as though the photographer told Willie to say "cheese", and instead he said "shit". The facial expressions of other significant players look terrific; I recall Clemente, Rose, Mantle, Banks, Billy Williams, Frank and Brooks Robinson, and Henry Aaron all look endearing. These beautiful cards would bring great joy to a recipient, especially one who'd drank Coke after Coke to collect the caps needed to redeem them for the set of 12 premium pictures of his local team. But Willie Mays, the biggest prize of the 12 Giants, wears a face that does look like sh**. Pity. OK, so back to LOTG's auction of the card. It got 11 bids, which amounted to only $1353, including the buyer's premium. I mean, the "dime" failed miserably to get a commensurate price.

Second, on April 6, 2019, the renown Memory Lane auction house hammered the most significant Willie Mays regional / food card that could hit the market: the 1954 Stahl-Meyer Franks Willie Mays in spectacular PSA 9 MINT condition. I shan't convey my feelings for the glorious post-war regional / food issues, and what I have given the hobby to prove it. I'll let the facts speak for themselves, and emphasize this was a major auction house grandstanding the piece. That amazing profound rarity garnered all of 23 bids, and sold for just $23,376. I don't remember what the PSA price guide gauged the value prior to the auction. I should think the value would have been ready to skyrocket, for the opportunity to attain the 1 of 1 MINT specimen comes very rarely, obviously. Alas, no, and PSA's price guide listing for the card shows the negative red numbers.

No more really needs to be said. I don't enjoy writing this; I'd rather remember him as a kid when I got Willie's 1962 Topps, or his 1966 Topps. Of course, I remember as a kid getting his 1961 Topps............

---Brian Powell

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